CLEVELAND, Ohio — In this episode of the Wine and Gold Talk podcast, host Ethan Sands, Chris Fedor and Jimmy Watkins discuss the Cavs’ playoff prospects, analyzing potential opponents in the Eastern Conference. Cavs are expected to dominate either potential opponent in the first round.Atlanta Hawks may struggle to compete after their recent loss.Cavs need to avoid injuries to maintain their championship aspirations.Cavs’ playoff success hinges on their ability to shoot well from three.Coaching strategies will play a significant role in the Cavs’ playoff performance. Listen using the player below: If the player above doesn’t work, you can listen to this week’s podcast here. You can also listen using your preferred podcast app. Subscription information is below. Subscribe and listen on Apple Podcasts or Spotify. The video version of the podcast is on YouTube as well. Read the automated transcript of today’s podcast below. Because it’s a computer-generated transcript, it may contain errors and misspellings. Jimmy Watkins: Foreign. Ethan Sands: Nation. I’m your host, Ethan Sands and I’m back with another episode of the Wine and Gold Talk podcast. And now we can officially say that the Cavs, potential opponents in the first round that starts on Sunday. Game one on Sunday has been brought down to two options. They have the Atlanta Hawks, who lost to the Orlando Magic on Tuesday, and the Miami Heat, who beat the Chicago Bulls on Wednesday. Those two teams will match up on Friday to see who will come to Cleveland on Sunday to play against the number one seeded Cavs. First and foremost, guys, what did you guys think about the first two play in games in the Eastern Conference? Obviously we got to see a little bit of all the teams Orlando now will go match up with Boston and Chicago Bulls. Their season is over. Chris, what did you think about what you got to see from these four teams and then going into who the Cavs might play? Chris Fedor: Well, I think the first thing that came to my mind was damn, because Atlanta lost. And I was rooting hard for Atlanta because it would have created the perfect scenario for me in terms of what I wanted to happen in the first round based on the places that I wanted to travel to. So if Atlanta would have won and they would have gotten the seven seed, then it would have been eureka. I mean, are you kidding me? There was no wrong choice there. There was no wrong outcome there. There was no bad outcome there. Miami, Orlando, Chicago, sign me up for all of those places. So my first reaction was, damn. My second reaction was, well, this is why these teams, all of these teams are in the play in tournament and fighting just to get into the playoffs because they’re clearly flawed teams, even inconsistent that you see throughout their regular season carrying over into a play in game. Like there were moments that Orlando looked awesome and you’re like, hey, there’s that team from last year that pushed the Cavs to seven games. There’s that team from last year that looked like it was going to be a problem and it was going to continue to ascend in the Eastern Conference. And then there are other moments throughout that game as Atlanta’s making a push, getting closer and closer. You’re like, yeah, there’s that flawed offensive team that has a really hard time putting the ball in the basket consistently. That goes long stretches of just horrendous offense. And what the hell happened to Franz Wachner shot like, why is there a hitch in that thing? So yeah, Orlando was the seventh seed for a reason and they kind of showed all of that throughout, throughout the course of the game against Atlanta. And then Atlanta was the eight seed going into the play in tournament again for a reason, because Trae Young has never had an all star teammate ever. The closest he came was Dejounte Murray. Those guys did not work out together and they kind of like had on court conflicts in terms of their playing style and stuff like that. So it just, you know, there’s all these conversations about, oh my goodness, Orlando was tough and physical and boy, Boston’s really going to be tested. Yeah, my butt. Not happening. Orlando cannot score consistently enough to make that a series against the Celtics. And whoever emerges as the eight seed is going to have nothing of substance for the Cavs. So you just kind of see and all these teams show their flaws and their weaknesses when they get into these kinds of environments. Jimmy Watkins: My take on the Eastern Conference playing games is fart noise. Like we, this is good for the Celtics and Cavs. I’ll say this top two seed in the east worth gunning for every year. Worth gunning for every year. This is where we’re going to get now. Who knows, there are some Eastern Conference teams in the lottery this year that could, you know, Cooper flag. I, I’m a big Cooper Flag believer. I think he could transform whatever team he goes to. Who knows? The right team lands him. You, maybe you don’t want to be there could be some spunky seven or eight teams. But it’s like the Houston Rockets have to play Steph Curry and Jimmy Butler. That’s who they get. That’s who they get out of the play. And it’s like I know that the Memphis Grizzlies have the Denver. I feel like the Denver Nuggets have overshadowed the Memphis Grizzlies recently because the Denver Nuggets lit themselves on fire and then poured gas on it. Memphis just started their own fire. And now we forget that Memphis is also on fire. But I don’t know. Memphis looked spunky last night. Josh sprained his ankle. But like John Moran’s an all star caliber player. Jaren Jackson junior’s all star caliber player, Desmond Bain could play for my team any day. Like that’s not going to be a fun series for the Thunder. Even if it’s a 5 gamer, it’s going to be physical and mouthy. And I just watch, watching the two east playoff games, I guess I should turn on Mavericks Kings. Mavericks Kings would fit more in the east play in type situation. But if you just watch Warriors Grizzlies last night, which looked like a real playoff game, you watch these other games, I mean, if you told me that it was a Tuesday in January, I would believe you. I really would. Chris Fedor: Double putting on Dallas and low calorie Chicago. No reason for that. Ethan Sands: Low calorie Chicago is hilarious, especially because the Kings are just getting blown out right now by the Dallas Mavericks because Klay Thompson’s on a heater. Obviously we’ll get to that game when that ends, if this podcast is still going. Jimmy Watkins: But you can’t say Nico made the bad trade yet. You can’t say it yet. Stop with your. Your unceasing questions, Tim McMahon. It’s still too early. Defense wins championships. Defense hangs. Play in banners against DeMar DeRozan and Zach Levine. You hear me? Ethan Sands: Okay, Jimmy? I don’t know. I think it’s still a bad trade. Chris Fedor: Of course it is. It’s a horrendous trade. Everybody knows that. Jimmy’s take was ripe with sarcasm 100%. Ethan Sands: But okay, so now we get to break down the Atlanta Hawks and the Miami Heat when it comes to the two teams that the Cavs could face off against in the first round. Obviously Chris is again pulling for the Miami Heat, so he does not have to go to Hotlanta. Unfortunate for everybody in Atlanta and those fans. But before we get into that, I do want to get your prediction for the Orlando Magic Boston Celtics series for that. Just because I think Boston and four. Chris Fedor: Four Boston and four. Like, what are we doing? Yeah, I mean, there are going to be moments throughout the course of that series where mouthy Orlando is going to like push Boston and maybe have a hard foul on poor Zingis or do something that gets under the skin of Jayson Tatum or Jaylen Brown. But no, they’re one of the worst three point shooting teams in the entire NBA and their offense is just abysmal. Like last year in the playoffs between the Cavs and the Magic, Jared Allen said, hey, first to 85, that don’t work when you’re playing against Boston. Now it becomes a math problem. And not a lot of people can win that math problem, especially a team that is so neutered on the offensive end of the floor in the Orlando Magic, like Paulo Banchero stylistically matches up pretty well with the players that the Celtics have. And Franz Wagner looks like he fits in a series against the Celtics because of his size, because of versatility, because of his length, because of his athleticism. And like, there are some other guys on the Magic that you look at on that roster and you say, okay, yeah, that’s the type of player, that’s the style of guy that would fit in a series against the Celtics. Those are the types of players that you need to be competitive with Boston. But no, Orlando’s just not good enough offensively and their defense isn’t good enough to a level that is going to bother Boston repeatedly throughout the course of a 48 minute game and then repeatedly throughout the course of a seven game series or in my case what I believe is going to be a four game series. So get the freaking brooms out because I do not believe Orlando can hang on the offensive end with Boston. Ethan Sands: No, Chris has been snappy on the last couple of podcasts. Jimmy Watkins: Not only that, it’s just like no Jalen Suggs, Brian Anderson on TNT last night was earnestly telling us that Corey Joseph has been a lightning rod. Lightning bolt. I think it was a lightning bolt. Chris Fedor: I think it was lightning bolt. Lightning bolt. Jimmy Watkins: 33 year old Corey Joseph who is, he’s a fine backup point guard. A fine veteran savvy backup point guard. Not my idea of a lightning bolt. But the Orlando, that’s what the Orlando, that’s where the Orlando Magic are at right now. Any sort of organization that you can provide for them equates to a lightning bolt and actually think like against your run of the mill east play in team. I think the like you saw it last year. No Jimmy Butler. The Heat still beat the Celtics in one game because the Celtics fall asleep and the Heat make a billion threes. I think Orlando is just annoying and just talented enough to like keep Boston awake for long enough portions of the game. Like they’re going to start talking and Jason Tatum and Jalen Brown really. Okay, let’s turn up for about a half quarter and put this thing to bed. So I’m with Chris on that. Chris Fedor: Last in three point makes, last in three point percentage and bottom 10 in the NBA in three point attempts. That’s just not a formula for beating Boston. Ethan Sands: While I’m over here annoying Chris with questions that we obviously all have the same take on. Let’s do this. Let’s continue to go through the Eastern Conference playoffs that we already know are Knicks, Pistons. You think that’s going in four two, Chris or you think that’s more of a series? Chris Fedor: I would not be surprised if Detroit won that. Now there is a caveat here. It’s the readiness of the Pistons and How much did J.B. bickerstaff learn from the first round flame out two years ago? Because this is the playoffs. It’s going to be intense, it’s going to be physical, it’s going to be pressure packed it’s going to be a crazy, raucous environment that Cade has never been in, right. That Ron Holland has never been in, that Jalen Duran has never been in. So we’re talking about important players for the Pistons that they just don’t know what to expect when it comes to playoff basketball, because they’ve never been there. And I feel like a couple of years ago, one of the problems that the Cavs had is that J.B. bickerstaff is temperamental. He is. And that’s. That’s something that helps, I think, these rebuilding teams, because he instills this culture and edginess to his team. But the playoffs require composure. Playoffs require you to be a little less emotional, and I just wonder if JB Biggerstaff is a little bit too emotional and if that trickles into all these other guys and if they can handle the environment that they’re walking into. Madison Square Garden, three seed in the Eastern Conference. I’m telling you, man, msg, two years ago, for that first game on the road, I’ve been in Toronto for the playoffs, I’ve been inside Oracle arena, which is nicknamed Roricle Arena. Now it’s the Chase center, but before it was Oracle Arena. I mean, I’m talking about some of the most hostile environments, some of the loudest buildings that you could imagine for playoffs. That Knicks game, I couldn’t hear Tori Kelly do the national anthem, which was bothersome to me because she can belt now. And I felt the floor beneath me start to shake like it was a hornet’s nest in there. And it’s going to be again for these Knicks, even though, you know, there’s this feeling in New York about, how good are we? Is Tibbs going to get fired? What’s the deal with our defense? Is it going to hold up? It’s still New York. It’s still msg. It’s still playoff basketball inside the Mecca. It is going to be raucous. And as much as I wonder about the young Pistons players handling that, I wonder about JB Biggerstaff and if he can keep his emotions in check and not allow it to get, you know, into his roster, where they’re starting to look at the referees, where they’re starting to come unraveled because of everything that’s going on throughout the course of the game. I think the Pistons are equipped stylistically to bother New York and push New York. And I think there are some games where New York’s just not going to have enough consistent answers for Cade. He’s going to Go on heaters. And I think Malik Beasley is capable of making four or five, maybe six threes in a particular game to take one of those. So I am not completely counting out Detroit. I think this has a chance to go seven. I think this has has a chance to be last year’s Cavs Magic and it push a team that has more talent, that seems to be more ready. But that team is just pesky and physical and annoying and stylistically they can create problems. So I would not be surprised if Nick’s Pistons is this year’s Cavs Magic and it goes seven. Jimmy Watkins: I’m a little more five or six on this one because I just worry. I freaking love Kate. Kate has torched the Knicks this year, but I just don’t know what I’m getting after that. We’re doing like your second most important creator is Dennis Schroeder. That’s it. Chris Fedor: Oh, man. He’s been on big stages before and. Jimmy Watkins: He’S shot 42% in the playoffs. This ain’t the Olympics. I know Dennis Schroeder in the Olympics is an absolute problem. He is really good playing for Germany. I just haven’t seen it in the play. I mean, it’s been since what, the okc? He was pretty good in the okc. Chris Paul playoff series against Houston. We took him seven, but that was like three, four years ago. I just don’t trust that guy. I don’t trust Tobias Harris. Chris Fedor: I’m not so much talking about his results. I’m talking about like, can he handle everything that the playoffs are and he. He is better equipped to handle it than some of these other guys can handle it. Jimmy Watkins: But I also need him to score efficiently. Chris Fedor: Yes. Jimmy Watkins: Yeah. Chris Fedor: Yes. Jimmy Watkins: Him. Tobias Harris. These steady veterans that have been so good for the Pistons this year help them build a culture. I’m just not sure that they are equipped behind to stand behind Cade the way. I mean, the Knicks offense. I know we have a lot of questions about the Knicks. I think they’re most. I don’t think they’re going to get to the point this year where they figure it out and are anything close to resembling a contender. I think Boston’s going to spank the stuff out of them next round, but I do think they’re going to get there because we know Jalen Brunson is going to be ready for the playoffs. The Knicks offense has transformed with. With Cat as the the floor spacing 5. OG and Anobian Mikel Bridges are very steady. Josh Hart, you know, down. I think the Knicks Pistons might be a little deeper than the Knicks. At least they’re willing to dig a little deeper than the Knicks. Tom Thibodeau, how many, how many minutes of a, of a possible 48 a game? How many are we going to see from Josh Hart and Mikel Bridges in this series? A lot. A lot. Chris Fedor: 47 probably right. Jimmy Watkins: Spaced out the first round. Spaced out pretty well. I don’t think that’s going to hurt the Knicks and I just don’t trust Detroit to keep up with with New York’s offense. So I’d go Nixon. Well, if you’re going to have a take, say with your chest Nixon five while we go on here, favorite team. Insert favorite team here. The team that’s favored in six games is the softest pick in NBA media. It’s the softest pick in NBA media. That’s all I’m saying. Ethan Sands: Yeah, I know both of your points are very valid. I would also go with Nixon 5, but I also think, Jimmy, your point about the minutes and how much Mikal Bridges and Josh Hart and Jalen Brunson and Carl details like how many minutes these guys played. Also whether or not they’re going to have Mitchell Robinson and how many minutes he’s going to play. Right. I think these are all things that, like if something goes wrong in game one, like if somebody burns out in Game one, Game two, like, I think the series changes significantly. But obviously that’s if and we’re not going on speculation here. Chris Fedor: Always another layer to anything related to a team that has Cat. He is liable to pick up two really goofy, idiotic fouls in the first four minutes of the game and he’s guarding Jaylen Duran and Jalen Duran is big and physical. Or Isaiah Stewart comes in and he gets under his skin and he antagonizes because that’s what he does. And then Cat gets caught into it because that’s what he does. So there’s always that possibility. Jimmy Watkins: Yeah, Pistons just get the game close within five points with three minutes left and then have Isaiah Stewart say something mean to Kat. Who knows what will happen. Ethan Sands: Say something mean is ridiculous. But I think going on to the next group of pairing, we have obviously the fight for the number eight seed, right, Atlanta and Miami. And I don’t know how this, this is going to go. Chris Fedor: Please, basketball gods, please look down on. Ethan Sands: Me just the actual statistics of the game and who’s going to come out with the win. I obviously think Atlanta is the easier opponent for the Cleveland Cavaliers. And I’ve said this dating back to like a week or so now, but I don’t think there’s the same level of oh, the Miami Heat and the Miami flew in the playoffs because these guys are locked in. So I don’t know if there’s necessarily the same kind of home advantage that the Miami Heat would have as they did in the regular season when the Cavs traveled to Miami. What are you saying for this number 8 seed game? Who do you guys have coming out of it, Chris, outside of your desires and the basketball gods being on your side? Chris Fedor: I mean, first of all, let me just say that neither one of these teams, Miami nor Atlanta, is beating the Cavs in a seven game series. It’s just not happening. Neither one of these teams is getting it beyond five games against the Cavs. It’s just not happening. But do I think it would behoove the Cavs to avoid having to deal with spo. Yeah, do I think it would behoove the Cavs to avoid dealing with Bam Adebayo? Tyler Herro, who can go on a heater, you saw what he did tonight. Nearly scored 40. Andrew Wiggins kills the Cavs throughout the course of his career. So like there’s always a danger of Miami making 17-23s because of Hero, because of Davion Mitchell, because of Duncan Robinson who’s been a Cavs killer in the past because Bam can now shoot from the outside. So it’s like you want the easiest road imaginable. If you’re a team, you don’t want to have to exert yourself as much in the first round because you don’t know how that’s going to carry over into the remainder of the playoffs. Just look at last year first round series against Orlando. Jared Allen gets hit in the ribs and he’s no longer available after game four. You don’t want that to happen because then that changes the Cavs from being a championship contender into probably more just a playoff contender, probably more just a nuisance for Boston as opposed to a real threat for Boston, you know, so you want these things to be as short as possible so you can get your rest, you can get your recovery. You’re not in danger of extending minutes. You, you’re not in danger of putting yourself in a situation where an injury could pop up or something could pop up. Who knows? So I think Miami would have a better chance to avoid a sweep against the Cavs. I think they’re the better team going into this game against Atlanta. You know, at one point I think Atlanta was, was capable of being Bothersome if they got into the playoffs just because, like, players that they had from a stylistic standpoint, were really long, really athletic, versatile, could pass, dribble, shoot. So you put all of them on the floor together at the same time, and it’s like you’re being guarded by an octopus with all these limbs and stuff like that. But Jalen Johnson is not 100% right. Larry Nance Jr. Is done for the year. He’s got really long arms and he’s got athleticism and he’s a good defender. DeAndre Hunter’s in Cleveland, so you don’t have to deal with that as well. So, like, some of the things that made Atlanta kind of tricky to deal with, those don’t exist to the same level. So I think going into the game, if I’m Miami, they split the two games in the season series. But going into the game, like, I think Miami is better positioned currently than Atlanta is now. Atlanta earlier in the year, maybe Miami right now versus this version of Atlanta. I would give the edge to the Heat, even though they’re going on the road. And the other thing is playing in Atlanta is not playing in Madison Square Garden. Playing in Atlanta is not playing at Rocket Arena. Playing in Atlanta is not playing at the TD Garden for Boston. So. So it’s not like there’s a significant home court advantage that kind of makes an even game or a coin flip game go in favor of the home team. So if I’m Miami, I feel pretty confident that, that I can win this game and I can be the first team to, you know, do this in a play in tournament, win twice and get into the playoffs. Jimmy Watkins: Yeah. The other thing is the Hawks just lost a. A play in game by like 20 plus points. Something at stake there. And you guys just let go of the rope. That’s not good against the team that couldn’t score. And the magic looked awesome against you guys. Corey. You let Corey Joseph get called a lightning bolt. Cole Anthony ripped up your bench. I just think. I think Atlanta is ready to go home. And I think the Sacramento Kings, who are now down by quick math, 26 points, are ready to trade for Trae Young. I think we should just speed up the ball or the mellow ball. What’s the difference? I think that’s just. Let’s just speed it up. Let’s go. I personally would prefer not to watch Trae Young leaping into Donovan Mitchell’s hip at the elbow. That’s just a personal preference. I’d be interested. If you’re the Cavs, you do want the Hawks just because not just like the Heat are annoying to play. I think this is a big confidence building opportunity for the Cavs in the playoffs. I think the Heat make it harder to for Kennedy to keep as I’m going 10 deep promise because spoiler is going to expose every weakness that every player has out there and is going to frankly keep the games closer. Whereas again, I think the Hawks you’re probably going to get some comfortable victories in there so you can run the bench as deep as you want. You can. It will just feel lower stakes and I don’t think we’re past the point of the like talking about oh, are the Cavs going to be tight in this playoff series. But like I just think it’d be really nice to set a tone, look absolutely dominant, sweep the crowd crap out of the Hawks and keep it pushing. And it just feels like Miami would make it more complicated with their junk defenses and supposed playoff acumen, et cetera. Chris Fedor: The other thing is I don’t think Miami is bad per se. I think there were moments throughout the course of the season that they played poorly and their flaws certainly got the best of them. And I do think that they still have flaws that can be exposed. Saw those again against Chicago. You’ll see those again if they match up against the Cavs. A clearly superior team, a team with a bunch of talent. But I mean BAM is an all star caliber player. Tyler Hero is an all star caliber player. SPO might be the best coach in the NBA. And I know the whole thing is if a queen had a package, she’d be a king. But I mean Miami threw away double digit games in the fourth quarter because they simply couldn’t close. And many of those games were when Jimmy was doing whatever it was that Jimmy was doing and they didn’t have the guy that they were used to going to in those kinds of situations. So a lot of different guys had to get more comfortable playing in those kinds of situations and they failed in those situations more than they succeeded. But I mean if half of those those wins that they turned into losses just by their terrible execution in the fourth quarter and repeated meltdowns, if half of those become wins instead of losses, I mean we’re talking about a team that is the six seed instead of the Detroit Pistons, you know, so if you look at their point differential, they’re seventh in the Eastern Conference, it’s a positive point differential and it’s just so hard to ignore like all the chaos and the drama that they had to deal with for Such an extended stretch. And how does that impact your view of Miami? How did that impact the Heat’s ability to consistently win basketball games and stuff like that? So again, I don’t think Miami would win the series against the Cavs. I don’t think that they would extend it beyond five games. But I think there will be close games throughout the course of that series because I have more respect for a team like Miami than I do this version of the Hawks. Ethan Sands: Speaking of meltdowns, I mean, your star player gets ejected for throwing a temper tantrum. I don’t know if that’s any sign that the Atlanta Hawks, especially what Jimmy was saying, are going to make it out, become the eighth seed against the Miami Heat. I definitely think, as you said Jimmy as well, I think if the Cavs were to play the Hawks, it’d be a sweep. And if this is my take on it, if they play the Miami Heat, I believe it would be a five game series. But that’s just my take on the situation where we’re at. And I think Miami’s going to make it out just because of where they’re standing. And also because you saw Trae Young say that he got irritated with the physicality of the playoffs, right? In his post game. He was like, there were some calls that I should have got. Sorry, kid. Physicality, playoffs kind of go hand in hand. Jimmy Watkins: Hard life out there when you actually have to draw contact to get the foul. Isn’t it tough going? Ethan Sands: And I was just going to reference Jimmy, your article on the art of foul baiting and how players in the playoffs who do that don’t necessarily get the same whistle. Depends on who you are. But not everybody gets that whistle and obviously Trae Young is in that category. So I definitely think it’ll be interesting to see how he reacts and how Miami guards him on Friday in Atlanta. And if he wants to put a show on or if he wants to throw another temperate, tame trump to end his season and potentially his tenure with the Atlanta Hawks. Jimmy Watkins: I hope he wasn’t watching Davion Mitchell guard Kobe White tonight because that didn’t look very fun. That didn’t look very fun. Chris Fedor: That’s so Miami to find a guy like that, isn’t it? Somebody else is cast off and they’re like, you know what, we’re going to put him in our player development program, right? And we’re going to put him in our culture and he’s just going to become a defensive irritant just like he was. Jimmy Watkins: He’ll be shooting 37% from three on four attempts per game in no time. Ethan Sands: It also helps that Davion Mitchell was an uncharacteristic 5 of 5 and 2 of 2 for 15 points like that. That’ll play. Jimmy Watkins: That’s Miami Heat in the playoffs, baby. That’s Miami Heat basketball. That’s Miami Heat basketball. Go get a bag, Davion Mitchell. We ain’t paying you. We ain’t paying. But we’ll gladly benefit from your blip shooting hot streak. Chris Fedor: It’s. It’s surprising to me actually going into the game that, that Atlanta is favored. I am surprised by that. Ethan Sands: I did want to get into the potential storylines of the Miami Heat Cavs because I think Chris is pushing for Miami to win and I think the expectation is that Miami is going to win. Chris Fedor: But. Ethan Sands: But obviously the storylines of how Tyler Herro has played this season and trying to get to the next level, matching back up with the Cavs and how historically the Cavs have not fared well against the Miami Heat outside of when LeBron James is on the roster. Right. So I definitely think it’s important to go through these things and we talked a little bit about depth and how that can be played and not the Hawks has more of a storyline with Caris Levert and George Niang over on that side. But when you talk about Duncan Robinson coming off the bench, when you talk about Davion Mitchell and the irritants that they have to cause havoc on the perimeter on the defensive end and how those different players can impact the game, what do you guys think is the biggest key for the Cavs if they were to match up with the Miami Heat? And sure, we will do more of this on Friday when we get there. Chris Fedor: I think it’s potentially how the Cavs execute against a zone because that’s. That can be an equalizer for a team like Miami. They go to zone teams get thrown off, they’re taken out of rhythm. They don’t necessarily have a ton of experience executing against that. It just throws a different level of preparation. It just throws a different level of confusion into what you want to do. And the Cavs are. They’re not as pick and roll heavy as they’ve been in the past, but they’re still pick and roll heavy. They still want to do that. That’s why they have Jared Allen. That’s why they have Darius Garland, Donovan Mitchell, Evan Mobley, same thing. You know, obviously the Cavs want continuous movement and cutting and stuff like that. A lot of the stuff that they do works better against a man to man defense against a switchy defense. So I just think how they execute against Miami zone because I think the Heat are going to understand that dealing with the number one offense in the NBA is going to require a lot and they probably don’t have the personnel to do it and they’re not going to continue to give the same kind of looks and they are going to go zone a lot. And now it helps that the Cavs practice against their own zone. They use their own zone. They understand the weaknesses of the zone because they use it themselves. But dealing with Miami zone and being able to consistently execute for lengthy stretches I think is a big key anytime you play against the Heat, beyond the obvious other stuff. Jimmy Watkins: Yeah, the zone stuff to me is just patience and making your threes you can shoot. You can shoot a team out of his own real quick, which the Cavs are more than equipped to do. And we’ve seen them throw DeAndre Hunter at the elbow or the, or the nail and just say, okay, be our zone playmaker guy or shoot over some guys like they have. I do think Miami can throw them off, like throw some junk ball pitches that might make the Cavs blink twice. But the thing is, the other end, I think it’s more the Cavs just need to be locked in on defense and don’t let the heat make 50 million threes. That’s what it is. Stay attached, shooter. Chris Fedor: Don’t. Jimmy Watkins: I don’t think this is going to happen. I think there’s going to be an awakening for the Cavs defense just because they’ve been. I think they’ve frankly been bored for a while here. The playoff, they’re going to be so excited and ready to go for the playoffs that they will be locked in. They’re going to, they’re. There’s going to be some ugly stretches of Miami Heat basketball when, when Miami has the ball, that’s going to turn into enough Cavs transition offense that Cleveland. Cleveland can bury Miami. I’m just not, I’m not particularly worried about either of these teams. The Heat doesn’t have enough individual talent. You need a plus games from Tyler Hero and Bam Adebayo the whole way just to hang, I think. Ethan Sands: All right, so the last thing that we haven’t or the last matchup that we haven’t discussed on this podcast of the first round of the Eastern Conference that we already know. Pacers, Bucs, where do you guys think this series would go? I think obviously the 3, 6 series and the 4, 5 series are going to be the most interesting, but I think the Pacers just have too much for the Bucs in this series. Chris Fedor: So everybody knows that. I’m a Pacers believer. They went to the Eastern Conference finals last year. Tyrese Halliburton made my all NBA team. He was getting consideration for the fifth spot in mvp. I just think him as an engine of an offense, the steadiness, the capability, they also can go five out. Siakam has been a good playoff performer at various points. They’re deep, so it’s not like they have to be overly reliant on certain guys. They have the experience, they’ve been through things together. So I do think that there are things that I like about Indiana, especially in a matchup against Milwaukee. But I keep going back to one fact and it’s Milwaukee’s going to have the best player on the floor. And it feels like Giannis has kind of paced himself at various points throughout the course of this regular season because he understands the burden that he’s going to have in the playoffs and he understands the two way responsibility. I mean, he even talked about it toward the end of the season, just not being the same kind of defensive player because he wasn’t willing to put forth as much effort at that end of the floor because he was so responsible for their success on the offensive end. The fact that Dame isn’t going to be ready at the start of this series, I think it’s problematic for Milwaukee because I just don’t know where else they go for consistent offense beyond Giannis. Gary Trent, very, very streaky. Bobby Portis, very streaky. Brook Lopez, very streaky. So I just don’t see a lot of consistency from Milwaukee beyond Giannis. And that doesn’t mean that Portis can’t have games. He’s going to have games and it doesn’t mean that Gary Trent Jr. Can’t bury a couple of threes or, you know, Derry Bird, AJ Green comes off the bench and he buries a couple of threes or Milwaukee has one of those games where they make 20 as a team, those things are going to happen. This is talking about beating one team four times in seven tries. And I think over the life of the series, I think Indiana is deeper. I think Indiana is better. I think Indiana is more of a complete team, despite the fact that there are glaring issues that they have on the defensive end of the floor, including who is going to consistently deal with Giannis and what is our game plan going to be to try and neutralize him as much as we possibly can. Also, I think Indiana Has a clear coaching advantage with Rick Carlisle over Doc Rivers. Jimmy Watkins: Sorry, Doc. I’m with Chris on that one. I think this is your Cavs Magic facsimile for this year, insofar as I just think both of these teams are going to look like completely different teams at home and on the road. We know what you’re getting from Giannis. Milwaukee, right. To a certain extent, you know what you’re getting out of old man Brook Lopez. After that, I roll the dice. We’re talking Kyle Kuzma, Kevin Porter Jr. Bobby Portis. Like, these are. These are not the pictures of consistency, the Pacers. I mean, honestly, if the Bucks had home court advantage, I’d be tempted to take the Bucks just because I have so much faith in Giannis. And as much as I kind of like what the Pacers have going and what they’re building there, I still wish that they had a guy like Tyrese Albert is their best player. But at the end of a game, if you need someone to. To get something done last possession kind of thing, I might be throwing the ball at Pascal to create my own shot. Tyrese get it from someone else, but I just don’t. I don’t know. I’m not there with Tyrese yet. I’m with Ethan on that. Chris Fedor: Clutch players in the NBA this year. Jimmy Watkins: That’s cool. That’s cool. He’s not. Chris Fedor: Throughout the course of the playoffs last year. I don’t get this whole time. I do not. At some point, people are just going to stop dismissing him and stop questioning him and understand that he is an elite point guard and he is somebody who makes a difference in so many, so many ways for a team’s offense. Ethan Sands: Was it against Milwaukee where he hit the game winner over Giannis in the corner? Chris Fedor: I’m pretty sure. Ethan Sands: So I hear you, Jimmy, when it comes to on ball creation, because he doesn’t create a lot of space with his dribble. I think Pascal is a better creator of offense when it comes to, like, on the ball and movement and getting into somebody’s body and these things. But like, if he’s getting into motion and finding his shot and throughout the game and gets into an open space and gets the ball created for him, I agree with you. I think he can make that shot, knock it down. But I think there’s a. A lot of stipulations for. For me for to give Tyree Taliban at the end of the game and have him play on his own. Jimmy Watkins: Pacer’s playoff run last year was just bub Kiss can We just acknowledge that. Chris Fedor: Yeah, they certainly had some advantages because it became a battle of. Jimmy Watkins: They certainly did because no one, no other team star players were healthy. That’s certainly an advantage. That’s certainly an advantage. Chris Fedor: Also hurt, too. He was dealing with hamstring injury. Jimmy Watkins: I get it. But he was out. He was out there. He was out there. I like a lot of the Pacers players individually, including Tyrese Halberton, and I am going to pick them in the series because they have home court advantage. But it’s just if Giannis had one other dude that I could trust that would pick the Bucks. Chris Fedor: So Tyrese Halliburton, I just want to throw this out there in clutch situations this year. 100 total points, three, just three fewer than Darius Garland, the fifth best plus minus. He shot 47% from the field and 41% from three point range and he had 25 assists against just five turnovers. I don’t know what else he has to do. Jimmy Watkins: He’s an elite decision maker. He’s an elite. He’s an elite decision maker. And again, it’s the Bucks. The Bucs don’t have a ton of answers for. Yeah, a lot of people defensively. But I’m just saying, as we get deeper in the playoffs, I am not scared of Tyrese Halliburton the way I’m scared of Donovan Mitchell or Jalen Brunson or. Chris Fedor: I think there are levels, Damian Lillard. Jimmy Watkins: If he shows up. Any of this stuff. Any of this stuff. Chris Fedor: I mean, I think there are levels to greatness, especially when you talk about a playoff environment in a seven game series. The other thing that I wonder about the Bucs guys is that, you know, they traded for Kyle Kuzma. As controversial as that was, as frustrating as it was for Bucks lifers that wanted Khris Middleton to retire and he was such a big piece of their championship a couple of years ago. But they traded for Kuzma with this idea that he was going to be their third option in Washington. He was miscast as a number one or a number two. Now he’s back to being a number two option. And that’s just not him. That’s not who he’s been throughout his career. The best version of Kyle Kuzma that we’ve seen in the NBA was when he was helping the Lakers win an NBA championship. He wasn’t the number one option. He wasn’t the number two option. He was in a role that brought out the best of him, that didn’t force him to do too much, that didn’t ask him to do more than what he’s capable of on a consistent basis. So I just think he’s miscast as a number two option. And I think when he is in that number two option, he starts to get a little bit chaotic. He starts to get a little bit frantic, he starts trying to do a little bit too much. And possessions are critical in the playoffs. Execution is paramount, decision making, all that kind of stuff. In that particular role, I think it has a chance to go the wrong way for, for Kuzma, and it’s not what they expected when they traded for him. They were thinking, Giannis is the number one option, Dame is the number two option. We’re just going to keep burning people with Dame, Giannis pick and roll stuff, and it’s going to be lethal. And then we’ve got Kuzma as a third option who can kind of be in a supporting role. Now it’s a little bit different because of the. Because of the whole Dame situation. Ethan Sands: It’s extremely unfortunate for Dame, right, because of the blood clots that you really can’t control. And, like, it’s not like he got injured. It’s not like he did something to his body. Not like he wasn’t taking care of his body. In fact, he was taking care of his body so well that when he was going in for an inspection, like, that’s when they found the blood clots. So now it’s like, all right, so does Damon Giannis work all these questions that were supposed to be answered this playoffs alongside Kyle Kuzma? I think it’s something that if he comes back, what version are you going to get from him? Especially because coming off of blood thinners and all these things, I think it’s ultimately going to be an unfair situation to Damian Lillard because they’re, of course, going to ask the world of him whenever he comes back, if he comes back alongside Giannis, who is going to be tired and worn out from trying to do everything. But I think it boils down to. Even if I don’t think either of these teams beat the Cavs either way. But again, this is the same team that scored 75 points with Giannis and Damian Lillard and still lost to the Cleveland Cavaliers. Jimmy Watkins: And. Ethan Sands: And the Indiana Pacers have the same kind of pace as the Cavs. I wouldn’t say they have the same kind of scoring or shooting. Right. But Tyrese Halliburton, Shore can’t get him up. Myles Turner, Pascal Siakam, all of these guys, I think their depth is just going to be overwhelming for the Giannis led Bucks. Chris Fedor: Be fine with Indiana in round two because that means I get to go to Harry and Izzy over and over and over again. Like they will start to know my name at Harry and Izzy. They will start to know my order at Harry and Izzy. I think I’ll just go there every single time. I’m fine with that. I’m okay with Indiana in round two if that’s what it is. Jimmy Watkins: Cyrus Halliburton had As many sub 15 point games last year in the playoffs as he did. Or more, sorry, more sub 15 point games in the playoffs last year than he had 25 point games. I’m just saying. Chris Fedor: Yes, but he also organizes their offense, spearheads their attack and dishes out 10 assists like it’s easy. Jimmy Watkins: Either his weird slingshot three pointer goes in or he doesn’t score. Ethan Sands: I think the Indiana series would up my likelihood of being able to travel for that series. So I would also put that in for the second round for the Cavs. I’m also looking at Harry and Izzy’s menu as we speak because I have not been there before. Yeah, I think we picked this beforehand without saying it, but we said it like in a way that we thought it was either going to be Atlanta or Miami and likelihood Miami is the harder option of those two. Atlanta would be the easier option of those two. Jimmy Watkins: Can Giannis borrow some of the heats role players? It’s just like he’d have so many steady role players. They just need a superstar, right? Giannis is so good. He just needs some role players. Let’s figure this out. Pat Riley is saying yeah, just come to Miami. Chris Fedor: Exactly right. It’s the first thing that he would. Ethan Sands: Say breaking this down based on what I think we had already detailed. Right. Miami and Atlanta are the two options for the Cavs to play in the first round. Atlanta is the easier option. Miami’s the more likely. They would not be able to beat the Cavs either way. Likely to going to be the team to come out of their series against the Bucks. So then that’s the second round Cavs Indiana third series as we all can imagine is going to be the Boston Celtics and we’re going to get there as the series continue but not get too far ahead of ourselves. Even though our predictions are almost in and you’ll get to read those on the site on Saturday. Chris Fedor: I mean that’s the thing. Would anybody at this point put it past Miami to completely lay an egg? Just go to Atlanta and just play horribly. Would anybody put A pass him. Tyler Herro goes 3 of 17 while trying to deal with Dyson Daniels. Ethan Sands: Bam. Chris Fedor: Adebayo gets in foul trouble. Andrew Wiggins bad. Andrew Wiggins shows up. I’m not dismissing that. That could certainly happen. That’s in the range of possibilities. I just don’t believe as much in this version of the Hawks. I think Quinn’s a really good coach. Trae Young is a killer if it’s a close game late. Jimmy Watkins: A killer of playoff dreams for his. Chris Fedor: Own team if it’s a close game late. You know Trae is going to have something to say about it just like he has in the past. Jimmy Watkins: Killer of team chemistry. Chris Fedor: Like, I’m not saying like this should be a 20 point spread or anything along those lines. I can see both these teams laying an egg. That’s why they’re in the play in tournament to begin with. I just think this version of Miami at this point in the season is slightly better than what Atlanta is putting out there. Jimmy Watkins: Killer of in game flow when his team’s in the bonus. The one time we’ve ever seen it on a meaningful stage, nobody was in the arena. Chris Fedor: Fugazi. Jimmy Watkins: Fugazi playoff run. Chris Fedor: No, we saw it. No, no. We saw it at Madison Square Garden. He became like the villain of New York for what he put those fans through and what he did to that version. Jimmy Watkins: Not still in like Covid capacity crowds then or what was the deal there? Chris Fedor: It was msg. He was inside msg. Jimmy Watkins: It was how many it was. Ethan Sands: It was full. It was four years. Jimmy Watkins: This was that. Chris Fedor: Do you want me to go look at like what the attendance were when he was doing that? He became the New York Village. New York hates him forever because of what he did during those playoffs. Jimmy Watkins: Should have hated Julius Randle instead. They kind of did. Chris Fedor: Yeah, they kind of did. I’ll pull up the attendance numbers so that you have them. Jimmy Watkins: Trae Young’s never shot 49% effective field goal percentage in the playoffs. What are we talking about? Chris Fedor: We are talking about if it’s. Jimmy Watkins: I get it. He shivered. He shivered. To the crowd. He said, it’s quiet as F in here. It was cool. It was cool. It was cool. That doesn’t mean I need to believe in Trae Young as like a winning playoff proposition. Chris Fedor: Scored nearly 40 points in the closeout game at MSG. Ethan Sands: I have a great sentence to read to you guys. After the COVID 19 pandemic shortened the 2020, 2021 NBA season and limited capacities at certain arenas, number four, New York drew number five, Atlanta in the playoffs. It was The Knicks first playoff series in eight years and marked a new benchmark for capacity allowed at Madison Square Garden. Chris Fedor: Listen to this lead Jimmy. In his first time on stage, Trae Young was already the star of the show Boom Boom Man. And just like an actor on nearby Broadway, he closed his impressive debut performance with a bow after making a long three pointer in the final minute. Now that is some writing, my friend. Jimmy Watkins: Is that four years ago. It’s a long ass sophomore slump that he’s in right now. One hit wonder for my guy, Trae Young. Chris Fedor: I’m just saying it happens. Jimmy Watkins: You know what happened the next year? He shot 32% in the playoffs the next year. Chris Fedor: Hilariously in that game five. Trae was 10 of 28 from the field, but he hit the big shots when they mattered most. Jimmy Watkins: I just went through the game logs. He was actually great during that first playoff run. But I know that some of the teams were the 20, 19, 20 and 202021 playoff runs. I don’t know how to feel about because was not quite. Maybe the. The Garden aside, but in many of the arenas was not quite the same atmosphere. It’s like this might feel like. I think Jamal Murray is a killer. I think Donovan Mitchell’s a killer. But isn’t it kind of weird they both had that, that one series where they both were trading 50 point games and then it never happened again or anything close to it. Like I just think that there’s something up with the, with the, the bubble and semi bubble shooting those two years. Chris Fedor: You’re just jealous that nobody called you Ice Jimmy. Jimmy Watkins: Facts. I would love to be called. I would also love to be paid a max contract to win 39 games a year. I’m jealous of that guy for a lot of reasons. Ethan Sands: Careful, Jimmy. You are. You are treading on hater status for everybody listening to the podcast. Chris Fedor: Every point guard. Ethan Sands: Lamelo Ball. Tyrese Halliburton. Jimmy Watkins: No, no, no. Tyrese Halberton has proven he can. Chris Fedor: He’s. Jimmy Watkins: He drives winning. I’m pro Tyrus Haliburton. I just don’t think he’s like this playoff Capital P, capital G playoff guy. I’m not with that. Trae Young and LaMelo Ball are just not winning basketball players. I don’t think think at this stage in their career. They are like spitting. They’re like funhouse mirror images of each other. Chris Fedor: What other point guard do you hate? I like winner Tyler Hero. Your Tyler. He’s a combo guard and like de facto point guard. Jimmy Watkins: He’s a combo guard. Chris Fedor: Yeah. Jimmy Watkins: I will say this. I Like Trae Young and LaMelo Ball better than Tyler Hero. Ethan Sands: What? Chris Fedor: I didn’t expect that. Ethan Sands: Neither did I. What the heck? Jimmy Watkins: The talent. This is not comparable. Talent’s not comparable. Chris Fedor: I agree. Jimmy Watkins: I don’t think the playmaking Tyler Hero is never going to get there as a playmaker the way those guys are. Chris Fedor: No, he’s not. Jimmy Watkins: No, he’s an all star, but not those guys. Chris Fedor: I think too many people in this world disrespect Trae Young and Tyrese Halliburton. That’s just my opinion on it. The things that they do, the responsibilities that they have for their offense is just not easy to flourish in that situation. Jimmy Watkins: But Tyrese Halliburton’s teammates like playing with him. I think that’s the difference. Chris Fedor: That’s true. I would agree that’s the difference. I think you can tell that every time you watch them play. And I think you can tell it the other way around every time you watch the other team play. Jimmy Watkins: Yeah, you can tell. Watching the Orlando Magic run the Hawks out of the gym in a must. Chris Fedor: Win game for Orlando to score 120. That is probably the most surprising result of the play in tournament to this point. I didn’t think they were capable of that unless it went into quadruple overtime. Ethan Sands: I think the more surprising part of it was it wasn’t led by Paolo in France. It was led by the Anthony’s call. Anthony and Anthony Black. If you would have told me that. I think what going into halftime that Paolo Banchero had made one field goal and they were going to be up by like 10, 15, 20, whatever it was, I would have laughed in your face. Chris Fedor: Always shows how bad the Atlanta Hawks played that game. There’s no guarantee that they play that poorly again on Friday night. Ethan Sands: Sure, sure. Thank you for listening to our rant. And Jimmy’s takes on his favorite guards around the league. Chris Fedor: Point guards, man. There’s something about the position. Did you play point guard back in the day? Jimmy Watkins: I would never compare myself to these guys. Ethan Sands: Jimmy’s a shooting guard from what I have heard. Jimmy Watkins: I’m Trae Young. Trae Young, shot selection with G league talent. That’s me. Ethan Sands: G league talent. That might be a stretch too. Woo. Chris Fedor: Woo. Jimmy Watkins: I mean G league like, you know, shots fire, what he’s see me on the court. I’m saying G league is like I am below. I am below. I’m trying not to do that, but I will. I will pull up from 30. We’ll see if it goes in or not. Ethan Sands: We’ll see if it goes in. Or not. Let us know if you want us to live stream a one v one of Me and Jimmy for the podcast. Feel like that would be fun. Jimmy Watkins: Take Jimmy and the Point. Chris Fedor: I’ve got a hoop in my driveway that you guys can use. Ethan Sands: All right, with all that being said on this episode of the Wine and Gold Talk podcast, but remember to become a Cavs insider and interact with Chris, me and Jimmy by subscribing to Subtext. Yes, we got your questions for this week’s hey Chris episode. That’ll come out tomorrow. But to be able to submit questions for next week or even if you to see if you can get your questions in this week, sign up for a 14 day free trial or visit cleveland.comcavs and click on the blue bar at the top of the page. If you don’t like it, that’s fine. All you have to do is text the word stop. It’s easy, but we can tell you that the people who sign up stick around because this is the best way to get insider coverage on the Cavs from me, Chris and Jimmy. This isn’t just our podcast, it’s your podcast. And the only way to have your voice heard is through subtext. Y’all be safe. We out. Note: Artificial intelligence was used to help generate this story from the Cleveland Wine and Gold Talk Podcast by cleveland.com. Visitors to cleveland.com have asked for more text stories based on website podcast discussions.