CLEVELAND, Ohio — In this episode of the Wine and Gold Talk podcast, Ethan Sands, Chris Fedor, and Jimmy Watkins discuss the recent NBA playoff matchups, focusing on the Cavs and their upcoming series against the Indiana Pacers. The Cavs are set to face the Indiana Pacers in the Eastern Conference semifinals, starting on Sunday.Tyrese Halliburton’s clutch performance in Game 5 against the Bucks shows how dangerous he can be.The Cavs had the highest offensive rating in NBA playoff history after the first round against the Heat.Coaching strategies will play a crucial role in the Cavs vs. Pacers series.Jarrett Allen’s productivity will be vital for the Cavs’ success.The Pacers’ offensive capabilities present a unique challenge for the Cavs.Player matchups will dictate the flow of the series.The importance of health in playoff success cannot be overstated.Expect a high-scoring series between the Cavs and Pacers. Listen using the player below: If the player above doesn’t work, you can listen to this week’s podcast here. You can also listen using your preferred podcast app. Subscription information is below. Subscribe and listen on Apple Podcasts or Spotify. The video version of the podcast is on YouTube as well. Read the automated transcript of today’s podcast below. Because it’s a computer-generated transcript, it may contain errors and misspellings. Ethan Sands: What up Cavs Nation? I’m your host, Ethan Sands and I’m back with another episode of the Wine and Gold Talk podcast. And of course, joining me on today’s episode, Chris Fedor. Jimmy Watkins, the Three Headed Goat, joins you again on the podcast. I’m so glad to be with you guys because tonight was so much fun just to watch the unfolding of what is the Milwaukee Bucks against the Indiana Pacers and what was a game that came down to the last 40 seconds with Indiana trailing by seven points. But we also now know that the Cavs, obviously this is looking a little bit further ahead other than breaking down the game tonight, which we will do. The Cavs now get to play against the Indiana Pacers officially in the Eastern Conference semifinals, the same team that worked its way all the way to the Eastern Conference finals last summer season. And I think this is how we had it panned out from the outset, guys. Right? This is so far exactly what we have predicted. Just got to see how long this goes and we’ll get into our predictions as we will ahead of the series, which will likely start this weekend a little bit later, maybe even in a different podcast. But Chris, when you talk about Tyrese Halliburton, a guy that you had in your contention for MVP in the fifth slot of your ballot, seeing him be a playoff performer, of course, but also just come down the stretch and show how good he can be in clutch moments, what did that confirm for you? Or did it just show a little bit more of how bad the Milwaukee Bucks are down the stretch as well as Gary Trent Jr. Who had 33 points, was phenomenal in the fourth quarter, also had two of probably the worst turnovers in his entire NBA career to end the game. Chris Fedor: I think you guys know, and I think everybody that listens to this podcast knows that I’m about me when it comes to like scheduling related things. When it comes to matchups in the playoffs, I’m about what I think is best for me, my schedule where I want to visit, all that kind of stuff. So I’ve got this group text going with other NBA writers and it’s like five of us. And as the game was unfolding because we wanted a longer break before the conference semifinal series started between the Cavs and whoever it was going to be. It was most likely going to be Indiana, but all we were hoping for was can Milwaukee extend the series? Can Milwaukee find a way to push this thing to a Game seven so that we don’t have to get back to work as quickly? So that we can mix in a little bit of golf during our downtime. So we’re all texting with each other. We’re going nuts as Gary Trent is banging these threes. And it’s like, thank you, Gary. Way to go. You’re delivering exactly what it is we want. And then I think it was at the point where Milwaukee got up six in overtime. And I sent a text message that I regret right now. I said, guys, still time for Doc to F this up. And guess what happens? There was still time for Doc and the Bucks to F it up. And Indy finishes on an 80 run. And we all had this reaction of, oh, damn, this series is gonna start earlier than we wanted it to. So that was my first reaction. The second one is, I don’t understand for the life of me how players in the NBA can consider Tyrese Halliburton the most overrated player in the game. It is baffling to me. They just don’t value the right things. That’s what it comes down to. Because he is a winner, he is clutch, he rarely commits turnovers, and he is one of the best offensive engines in the entire NBA. Like, a big part of what the Indiana Pacers are on the offensive end of the floor, and they’ve got the second best offense in the playoffs, by the way, and they were one of the best offenses in the NBA during the regular season is because of him. And the way that he manipulates the game, the way that he controls the game, the way that he operates that highly efficient offense that is run by Rick Carlisle. So there are so many things that I think Tyrese Haliburton does well. I think there are so many things to like about him. There are also things that you don’t like about him, obviously. Maybe his dad being part of that. His mouthiness being another part of that. The fact that he really has, like, no in between game being part of that. The fact that, you know, he’s a little bit of a liability on the defensive end of the floor being part of that. But I think if you’re focusing on the things that Tyrese doesn’t do, well, I think you’re missing all of the great things that he brings as an offensive engine and a lead guard in the NBA. Jimmy Watkins: I think it’s really easy to see why players overrate him. And I’ve said this before, it’s because players value things that they can’t do or that they think they can’t do. Right? This is why NBA players have such immense respect for Kyrie Irving. They watch him dribble through an entire defense. They watch him put that ball on a string. They watch him spin it off his left fingertip off the top corner of the backboard, and they go, how did he do that? He’s amazing. Chris Fedor: Yeah. Jimmy Watkins: Tyrese Halliburton just making the right play out there over and over and over and over and reading defenses, making some. Some real slick passes. I’ve never seen someone, like, throw as many. You know, you’re taught from a very, very young age, never leave your feet as a ball. I’ve never seen someone leave their feet so much as a point guard and have it lead to so many good outcomes or just not lead to many tournament. He takes such good care of the ball in all situations, but particularly in those. And I think NBA players see that, and they’re like, yeah, boring. Like, I could do that. It’s like, if you could, you would. If you could, you would. Because Tyrese Halberton’s making a pretty penny making the right read over and over and over and over again. His range shoot. I think it’s the funky jump shot, too. I think guys with a funky jump shot get a bad rep. And then if they see you as food on defense like this, this all contributes to it. This all contributes to it. But Milwaukee would love to have anything resembling a Tyrese Halliburton out there tonight. You don’t. It’s like having a steady point guard, and Tyrese Halliburton is beyond a steady point guard, but having a steady presence out there at the end of the games, it’s one of those things. You don’t notice it until you don’t have it in the Bucs, they really look like a high school team navigating a press out there. It’s just one of those things where after you see the first one, you’re like, oh, boy. Because these things tend to snowball. I would also say teams assume the behavior of their coaches in these moments. And at a certain point, man, and that point was long ago. This ain’t a coincidence with Doc Rivers. This happened over and over and over and over again. He doesn’t manage these situations well. His doesn’t have the personnel to manage the situation well. And, I mean, I don’t think they were going to win the series anyways, but you blew a chance. You blew a chance. Who knows what happens? You go back to Milwaukee for game six, and then game seven, you got freaking Giannis, who was a man on the mission again tonight. You wasted it. You wasted It. Chris Fedor: And you forced me to go back to work early. Jimmy Watkins: Most importantly, yes. Chris Fedor: I mean, I was sending out gifts of, like, goggles in support of Gary Trent Jr. Like, all the different gifts that you could find. Jimmy Watkins: I have friends, college friends coming in this very week, like, Thursday through Sunday. And I was just like, if we could just push this start back to Sunday, I’ll be so good. Gary Trent happens to be the son of an OU basketball legend. So, like, this, like, the Shaq of the Mac is in that arena. Like, there’s so much good happening, and then we can’t have nice things going. Ethan Sands: To the Tyrese Haliburn point. Like, for me, as you mentioned, Jimmy, it’s strictly, strictly the ugly jump shot. And I’m the first person to tell you, if it ain’t broke, don’t fix it. But, like, I completely agree with the thought process of some NBA players. Like, ooh, that didn’t look good. That didn’t look pretty. Because, like, we’re in the era of everybody wants to play the beautiful game nowadays. People want to look like Paul George. People want to have the smooth dribbling of Kyrie Irving, as you mentioned. Jimmy, I think that’s a great analysis. I just think it’s so interesting to see how those different things don’t align. And obviously we have that disparity on this podcast with me and you and then Chris on the other side of the spectrum. I just think when you talk about a team that poses some problems for the Cavs as well, this is definitely going to be one with the Indiana Pacers. Obviously, this isn’t a team that we feel like is going to win the series against the Cavs, but surely enough, the pace of play, the offensive production, it is something. And it is one of the only teams that can match the firepower of the Cavs when it comes to efficiency, even if they don’t have the star players that the Cavs might have. Chris, what do you think about the situation going into the Eastern Conference semifinals? Chris Fedor: First, I would just like to point out that for all of the great gifts that Kyrie Irving brings to the table, he’s one of the best players in Cavaliers history, and he hit the biggest shot in franchise history. Tyrese Haliburton has done something that Kyrie Irving has never done, and it’s lead a team as the guy to the conference final. That is something that Kyrie has not shown that he can do. He has not shown that he can be Batman and be successful being Batman. But I digress, because otherwise, I just Bring out a whole bunch of numbers in support of Tyrese Halliburton, how great he was. Ethan Sands: You’ve done that already. Jimmy Watkins: Do those numbers include the injury reports of the playoff teams that they played against last year? Because I think Kyrie could have beaten those teams. I think he could have. Chris Fedor: Can’t assume that he would have. We don’t know it. But we do know that Tyrese Halliburton, the Pacers got to the conference finals. That’s all I’m going to say. Look, I mean, I think Indiana presents some problems for the Cavs. I think they have some of the formula that’s required to be competitive against the Cavs. They can shoot the heck out of the ball from three point range and keep up in a three point shooting contest and they can score a bunch of points. What was the problem that Miami kept running into over and over and over again? Their offense was so ugly, it was so bad, there was no rhythm to it that they couldn’t solve the defensive puzzle of the Cav. Now look, Cavs defense is great. Evan Mobley’s defensive player of the year, Jared Allen playing at a really high level. Max Strus is feisty and competitive and all those different things. But the Cavs are going to have their hands full against this Indiana offense that can just come at you in waves, that can space you out to the three point line, that have five shooting threats on the court at all times. And that’s been a problem at times for the Cavs and the way that they’re constructed. So it’s one thing for the Cavs to show the kind of defensive reputation and identity that they pride themselves on having that they talk about being over and over and over. Doing that against Miami is one thing. Now they’ve got to find a way to reach that level, that consistent level. Attention to detail, Focus following the scouting report. All those different things against a high powered offense that is not quite as good as the Cavs, but on a level that is very, very close to that. So it’s going to be fascinating to see what kinds of answers Kenny Atkinson and this coaching staff tried to come up with to slow down Indiana. Just like it’s going to be fascinating to see what Rick Carlisle and his staff tries to do on the defensive end of the floor to try and shut down this Cavs offensive machine. This could be fireworks. This could be the first to 115, maybe the first to 120. Very different than what we saw in the first round. Very different than what we’ve seen in past playoff series from the Cavs and from a basketball standpoint, I’m really, really excited about the potential of what we could see, especially on the offensive end in this particular series. Jimmy Watkins: Yeah. Get ready to hear your dad grumble about why they don’t play defense anymore in the NBA. Because these are two elite offenses. Sometimes the answer is. There aren’t many answers. Hope they miss. Hope they miss some of those threes. Right. It’s just hard, so hard to contain this. There’s. At a certain point, there is too much ground to cover. And to that point, I wonder if this is one of those. Like, is Kenny against Miami pretty clear he was leaning as hard as he could into can we get as much offense out there as possible when the team was whole, when Darius was out, we saw more of the DeAndre Hunter, Dean Wade elite big insert, elite rim protection big here lineup or front courts. Those worked pretty well. Those could have some offensive limitations at the other end. But, like, when we were talking about, like, when will a team start making the Cavs make choices between offense and defense? I think this is where we might see that. I kind of feel about Indiana and the Cavs kind of similarly about Boston and the Cavs. Like, the Cavs are a clear favorite, but if you start messing around and give a game away here or you have an injury or something that lingers, like, then it can get interesting. Then it can get real interesting real quickly. This is not a team. This is not an opponent to be trifled with. I was just doing some research. This is maybe something that means nothing, but I thought it was interesting. Pascal Siakam. I think if we were doing, you know, a playoff hierarchy, who do you trust the most in the playoffs draft, I think Pascal Siakam might go a little underdrafted. He has a rotation players. It doesn’t count, like Tristan or James Johnson of rotation guys. He has appeared in more playoff games than any player on either of these rosters. That’s pretty interesting to me. And he has. Early in his career, he had his struggles. He was kind of a every other game kind of guy. But last year he was really impressive. His effective field goal percentage has been climbing every time he gets in the playoffs. And I think he’s 30, 31 now. He’s rounded out his game really, really, really well. Offensively, he has. He doesn’t have a ton of weaknesses. I just think that. I think he’s a really interesting guy to watch and particularly as it pertains to, like, the Kenny making offense defense kind of choice because he’s the, he’s a very unique body type. He’s a Dean Wade, DeAndre Hunter type of guard. Like, you need that kind of frame to defend him. And I just, you know, I think there’s going to be more opportunities for those guys in the series as a result. Ethan Sands: Jimmy, I think that’s a great point, especially when we talk about how the Cavs have utilized Jared Allen for the first series. Right. Obviously, the Cavs were up by a good margin for a majority of this series of the first round against the Miami Heat, and that might not be the case in this series against the Indiana Pacers in the Eastern Conference semifinals. Right. So they, as you mentioned, they’re going to have to make decisions, choices. Are they going to stick with the defense, which we talked about? When they’re down, the Cavs will put in a lineup that has a more offensive structure. When they’re up, they keep with the defense. Right. And that’s with Jared Allen. And we’ve seen throughout this regular season where Kenny Atkinson has utilized lineups where Jared Allen was not in the closing minutes. And especially if you talk about having DeAndre Hunter or Dean Wade, depending on the matchup, depending on how good each player is playing, because as we know, it’s matchup bases day by day, as the Cavs like to say. But Evan Mobley likely at the 5, guarding Miles Turner on the perimeter, and then whoever you want to say at the four between DeAndre Hunter, Dean Wade, arguably even throw Max Strus in there, depending on if you want to have Isaac Okoro at the three, guarding Tyrese Halliburton. These are all just ideas that came to mind when we talk about how the structure of this series could come out. So my question to you guys is one, in this scenario, how important is Jared Allen’s one productivity when he gets minutes? Because he has been so crucial to this team, not only in the first round of this year, where he shot 78% from the field, but also last year when he was one of the best players for them in the playoffs as well. And how that’s going to correlate to what the decisions are made by Kenny Atkinson and the trust level that has already been built. Chris Fedor: Not entirely convinced that this is a Jared Allen series. I keep going back and forth on that like there are two ways to look at it. One way is, you know, Jared and Evan together give the Cavs a distinct advantage. Most cases that’s going to be true. The defensive rim protection, the fact that they can cover up for Mistakes on the defensive end of the floor, the big to big stuff that they can run. They’re both really, really good bigs in terms of the pick and roll. They complement one another a lot better because of the EV of Evan Mobley. But like Indiana’s been on the Cavs radar for a majority of this season. Like, yes, so much of the Cavs internally has been about Boston and I think everybody knows that they’re the reigning champions. They’re the team that you’re always going to have to go through. In the Eastern Conference. That was known, that was set. But there was also a thought about, hey, Indiana’s interesting high powered offense, team that went to the conference finals last year, a place that we want to go. The style that they play is really, really interesting. The coach that they have on the sidelines is really good in a playoff environment. So when the Cavs were looking at the possibility of making the trade for DeAndre Hunter, and they were doing all their background and they were doing all their data research and they were talking to as many people and they were doing film breakdowns, they looked at how DeAndre Hunter guarded Pascal Siakam specifically throughout the course of his career. They also did, you know, that Same breakdown with DeAndre Hunter against Franz Wagner and DeAndre Hunter against Paulo Banchero and DeAndre Hunter against Jayson Tatum and Jaylen Brown. So like a lot of the guys that the Cavs felt like they would have to go through in a playoff run and like, how would DeAndre fit in those types of matchups? And I just feel like DeAndre and Dean are the types of guys that if the Cavs are going to downsize a little bit, it’s weird to say downsize, but if they’re going to go away from the too big, look like it makes sense to do it against Indiana because you can have Evan Mobley deal with Miles Turner, the mobility, the athleticism, his ability to space the floor out to the three point line. You can have Evan do that. And then in theory, you trust Dean Wade, his strength, his size, his physicality against somebody like Pascal. And the same thing when it comes to DeAndre Hunter. That’s part of the beauty of going out to acquire a guy like DeAndre Hunter for these types of matchups against these types of teams that can be as versatile as you when it comes to how they function at both ends of the floor. You know, Pascal could play the five if he had to, just like he could play the four. You know, they could bring Jairus Walker off the Bench and he could play multiple positions. Obi Topping can come off the bench and play multiple positions. So I think this is one where, you know, Kenny’s not going to be married to a specific look, a specific grouping or a specific five man lineup. And there are a lot of things that he’s going to have to see unfold, especially at the beginning of the series. But it would not surprise me to see him lean more into DeAndre Hunter and Dean Wade with the one big look of either Evan Mobley or Jared Allen as opposed to the two big look, because I think it can be a little bit problematic for Evan and Jarrett together against Miles Turner and Pascal Siop because of their offensive versatility. Jimmy Watkins: So I do think there is a path to Jared Allen viability in this series. It’s pretty specific though. I think it starts with, you know, Chris mentioned the other day how far Jarrett was extending his defense out in those last couple Miami games. I think that’s almost a prerequisite. The Pacers are going to put five skilled dudes out there most of the time for four to five, you have to be able to guard on the perimeter. And he’s shown. I’m relatively confident he can do that in most matchups. But like, Halliburton’s gonna hunt you. How are you gonna hold up? And he’s gonna make you move your feet a lot. He’s gonna go back and forth and back and forth and back and forth. He’s gonna make you work. So that’s one, you have to be, you have to be good on the perimeter. Two, I think you have to, if you’re Jared Allen in particular, crush the offensive class, crush the offensive glass. When you’re on offense, when you and Evan are both out there in particular, make yourself useful in other ways when you’re not getting the ball, when you’re not like a playmaking outlet, always make the Pacers feel you. I think they’re like, I just looked it up, they’re 18th. The defensive rebound rate. That’s, that’s a product of how small they play. So if you can, if you can make them feel you under there, maybe you make Rick Carlisle think harder, hard about changing things. If you get a switch on somebody, you know, they’ll Cavs will throw you the ball. They’ll try this stuff out. Drop step dunk, punish a switch, punish an undersized guy on you. Not going to try it now. If you don’t score the first couple times, you’re not going to get too many more opportunities. But I think you have to be willing to try that stuff. And then I would also say Evan Mobley making threes, he’s been doing that. But that needs to happen. To the point of Kenny changing. I don’t think that’s a. I think it’s a good thing that Kenny would be willing to be adaptable. But there is this like in the coaching world, particularly when you’re a favored team in a series, there’s a philosophy, it’s like, well, why should we adjust to them? We’re the better team, make them adjust to what we do. If we downsize, are we not pivoting away from one of the things that we do best? And it’s like, yes, but there’s a thin line between making people adjust to you. And this is just what needs to happen. Because the Caps can play Pacers ball, the Cavs can play Pacers ball. And this is like one of the. The other thing about the DeAndre trade is like you can play small air quotes and still be huge. And still be huge. And I think that’s, that’s where Kenny is adaptable. He will be willing to change. But it’s just this is, this is where the emotional interpersonal stuff becomes really interesting. How does Kenny frame this in the most important moments with a guy he’s known forever? Jared Allen’s the easiest guy to appease in the world, right? But it’s not just him. It’s not just him. There are going to be other decisions like this that have an effect on guys morale. Just what it is. Ethan Sands: And Jimmy, I think you said that well. But I want to get into our last segment but before I do that, we know the offensive structure of these two teams, right? And I think it’s important to note that after the first series against the Miami Heat, the Cavs had the highest team offensive rating in NBA playoff series history since 1997 with an offensive rating of 136.2 just a few clicks down from them. The seventh best offensive rating since 1997. The 2024 Indiana Pacers Indian in playoff history with a 123.8 offensive rating and majority of their team is still back from last year. So we understand that this will be a high profile offensive game. Basically Chris was saying earlier, first to 115 sorry Jared Allen not first 85 this year. But I think not only were the Cavs and Chris hoping that the Indiana Pacers and Milwaukee Bucks series would extend so that they could have an advantage, a rest advantage at least over the Pacers the other team that they’re hoping even looking a little bit forward while we’ve talked about them a little bit on this podcast for their series to extend is the Boston Celtics against the Orlando Magic. Yes, this is Celtics corner. Yes, it’s going to be quick and we know as of right now, as of 10:15pm Eastern Time on April 3, 29th, 2025, the game is tied between the Orlando Magic and the Boston Celtics 53 53. With 945 left in the third quarter, Orlando was beating up on the Boston Celtics. And not that anybody is wishing on injuries or anything like that, but the healthiest team, as we mentioned on different podcasts, sometimes is the team to come out of the playoffs rather than the best team on paper. And I think that’s extremely important when we look ahead to a potential series against the Boston Celtics and how healthy they’re going to be and how an extended series against the Orlando Magic in the first round would also be beneficial for the Cleveland Cavaliers. Not just an extended series would have been for Chris, Jimmy and the Cavs against the Pacers in their first round matchup with the Milwaukee Bucks. But with all that being said, Natto wrap up today’s episode of the Wine and Gold Talk podcast, but remember to become a Cavs insider and interact with Chris, me and Jimmy by subscribing to Subtext. We haven’t done a hey Chris episode in a minute, so that’s coming up soon. To get your questions in and get your questions answered, this is where you can send them in by signing up for a 14 day free trial or visiting cleveland.com and click on the blue bar at the top of the page. If you don’t like it, that’s fine. All you have to do is text the word stop. It’s easy, but we can tell you that the people who sign up stick around because this is the best way to get insider coverage on the Cavs from me, Chris and Jimmy. This isn’t just our podcast, it’s your podcast. And the only way to have your voice heard is through subtext. Y’all be safe. We out. Note: Artificial intelligence was used to help generate this story from the Cleveland Wine and Gold Talk Podcast by cleveland.com. Visitors to cleveland.com have asked for more text stories based on website podcast discussions.