CLEVELAND, Ohio — In this episode of the Why and Gold Talk Podcast, host Ethan Sands, along with Chris Fedor and Jimmy Watkins, discuss the Cavs’ journey into the Eastern Conference semifinals against the Indiana Pacers. Darius Garland’s injury is a concern for the Cavs to start the series.The Cavs’ success hinges on their collective team effort, not just individual players.Miami’s exit interviews revealed insights into the Cavs’ strengths and weaknesses.The Pacers present a unique challenge with their scoring ability and pace.Cavs need to maintain their identity while adapting to the Pacers’ speed.Defensive matchups will be crucial in determining the series outcome.The Cavs have depth in their roster to counter the Pacers’ offensive threats.Kenny Atkinson’s coaching strategies will be tested against Indiana’s versatility.The importance of mental resilience in playoff scenarios cannot be overstated.The two bigs strategy for the Cavs could be advantageous against the Pacers.This is the time of year the Cavs got De’Andre Hunter for.This isn’t the kind of series to just neutralize one guy. Listen using the player below: If the player above doesn’t work, you can listen to this week’s podcast here. You can also listen using your preferred podcast app. Subscription information is below. Subscribe and listen on Apple Podcasts or Spotify. The video version of the podcast is on YouTube as well. Read the automated transcript of today’s podcast below. Because it’s a computer-generated transcript, it may contain errors and misspellings. Ethan Sands: What up, Cavs Nation? I’m your host, Ethan Sands, and I’m back with another episode of the Wine and Gold Talk podcast. And joining me today, Chris Fedor, Jimmy Watkins, you know ‘em, you love ‘em. And we’re coming to you after the Cavs first practice heading into the Eastern Conference semifinals against the Indiana Pacers. And of course, Miami Heat had some things to say in their exit interviews as their season came to a close in the sweep that the Cavs gave them in the first round. But we want to talk about what was said and how important that is going into this next round, and it starts and is based around Darius Garland. Obviously, we heard today that Darius Garland is still day to day with his left great toe sprain, but the understanding is it’s uncertain whether or not he will be ready for Game one. Chris, obviously behind the scenes, we know you have the best insight around the Cavs beat coverage. What have you heard about the severity of Darius’s injury and how much the rest aspect has helped him in preparation for Game one on Sunday night? Chris Fedor: I mean, everything that I’ve heard is that the Cavs have been pointing to Eastern Conference semifinals, Game one, whenever it was going to be feeling like the time off in the final two games of the series against the Heat and the extended break in between round one and two was going to allow Darius to get to a point where he felt good enough to go. But. But I think there’s a difference here. I think there’s healthy enough to play and I think it’s being effective while nursing an injury. And I think the latter is something that Darius is just going to have to deal with. Everything that I understand is that, you know, this is a bothersome injury for somebody like Darius, especially because of the style of playing. And I think every time you talk about any kind of injury, some of them are just easier to play through as Steph Curry with his thumb issue and everything that’s going on there in the series between the Rockets and the Warriors, I mean, they understand that his thumb is bothering him and they’re guarding him a certain kind of way. They’re grabbing him a certain kind of way, they’re being physical with him a certain kind of way. And I think with Darius, this particular injury, think about how he plays, guys, it’s shiftiness, it’s stop, start. Kenny Atkinson has been asked so many different times, what is the number one thing that stands out to you about Darius the player? What makes him so special? What does Kenny say? The first thing that he says he’s so fast, his speed. So we’re talking about somebody who, you know, needs these kinds of things to be so effective and dynamic. And every time he makes a move, there’s pressure put on that toe, he bangs it up against his shoe. And I think the stop start, the craftiness, the change of direction, the speed that he plays, it’s going to be hard for him to be the same guy that he was in the first two games against Miami while trying to play through this, while trying to deal with this. And it doesn’t mean that he’s going to miss more time as this playoffs go on. I just think it’s something that playing through it is going to be problematic for Darius. And you know, he was so good in the first two games against Miami. 24 points, 7 assists, just in control of his game on the offensive end specifically. And now I think this just throws a different variable into how effective he can be playing through this particular injury against the fastest team in the NBA that has like SEC type speed. When you translate it to college football. Jimmy Watkins: Style, you need all the scoring for this series, right? And I would just say, I think some people belittle toe injuries because it’s a small part of your body. Think about doing a step back. Think about how Darius Garland weaponizes step back threes. It’s a big part of his game. Your toes hit in the front of your shoe every time you do a step back every single time. So it’s, it’s a real thing. It’s a real thing. Ethan Sands: The next portion of this, and we got into this with Kenny Atkinson a little bit, is what was said in the end of season press conferences by the Miami Heat, especially Kyle Anderson, when we talk about him saying that the Cavs were better off without Darius Garland on the floor. And while Kenny Atkinson said he doesn’t really listen to that kind of stuff and that he personally believes that the Cavs are better with their all star point guard on the floor. He did admit that putting a bigger defender on guys like Davion Mitchell and Bam Adebayo having more switch heavy defenders on him to take away the passing lanes when he was in the pick and roll was beneficial for the Cavs. And I know that it’s important to note that Darius Garland is integral to everything that the Cavs do and to the offense that they have created. And especially when we talk about the creation aspect. And Jimmy did a really good job breaking this down in a YouTube short earlier today. I implore you to go check that out. But Jimmy, what Do you think about the breakdown from the Miami Heat trash talk? And how do you think Darius Garland impacts this series when it comes to his defense as well? Jimmy Watkins: Kyle Anderson, what are you doing? What are you doing? You played 14 minutes in the entire series. Why are you talking like this? I know that Kyle Anderson. I watched the clip in full beginning. He was asked a question about why he looks so much worse, essentially, at home. Why’d you get embarrassed at home, essentially. So you have to say something. You don’t have to say this. And he also did say, I’m not trying to, you know, something to the effect of I’m not trying to relitigate the Tyler hero, Darius Garland, who plays less defense debate. But anytime you say something like this, you just have to know that it’s gonna spread like wildfire. And again, you person who barely played in this series, if you want me to be honest, I mean, yes, the people in that room want you to be honest. The Miami Heat don’t want you to be honest in that moment. You just gotta keep that one tucked. Just say you didn’t bring the energy. Say the Cavs are really good. Just say the Cavs are really good. That’s what Eric Spolster kept saying after game four. They are. It’s true. It’s probably the best explanation. It’s probably the best explanation. You just didn’t need to do this. So I just thought that that was just. Of all the people. Of all the people who could bring this up. It’d be silly for any team who just got swept. Chris Fedor: But instead of focusing on the messenger, let’s focus on the message. Okay, Well, I think there’s nuance to this conversation. Jimmy Watkins: Yes, of course. I think Kyle Anderson’s kind of right. The Cavs did look better in the latter two games of those series, of that series than they did in the first game. That series, particularly on defense and on the glass. They were, I think, plus 13 in the last two games. On the glass. They were plus one in the first two games. They were giving up something like 85 points a game in the first two games. And they gave up like 106. I’m sorry, 85 in the second two games. 106 or something like that first game, by the way, 106 points per game. Still very good. But the Darius conversation. I think Kyle Anderson meant what he said. They looked better. That doesn’t mean they are better without Darius Garland. Big picture. Darius Garland does many things that the Cavs cannot replicate. Shot creation for himself and others. Setting the Table Pulse of the team, true point guard type of stuff. He’s been their closer at times this year. Like, it’s him and Donovan are the guys who you trust the most to initiate offense at the end of games. That’s really important. They need. I said again, I said this earlier today in the little clip that I made. The Cavs need Darius Garland to achieve their highest goals. They just didn’t need him to smack the 37 win heat around in the first round. And that’s okay. Chris Fedor: Yeah, I mean, I think that’s what it comes down to. To me, like, it’s not a reflection of Darius. It speaks more to Miami being so flawed. Miami being a lopsided matchup from the very beginning of the series. Look, everybody knew that it was going to be an uphill battle for Miami. They are the worst seed to ever make the playoffs ever. They’re the only team ever to get out of the play in tournament from the 9, 10 side of things and advance to the playoffs. So it was going to be lopsided from the very beginning. Their best player is in Golden State. And the reasoning that we gave of Miami having a fighting chance, like nothing to do with the current team except for it was the guy walking on the sidelines kind of pulling the strings. So in hindsight, like as lopsided as we thought it was going into the series, it turned out to be that level of lopsided. So I think it speaks more to Miami’s flaws, Miami’s poorly constructed roster, Miami’s deficiencies at both ends of the floor. I also think it speaks to the Cavs and what they’ve built here throughout the course of the season. Winning 64 games, being the number one seed in the Eastern Conference. This wasn’t about one guy. It wasn’t ever about one guy. It wasn’t about two guys. It wasn’t about three guys. It was about the collective. It was about the team that they built. And it was one of the most complete teams in the entire NBA. And that’s how you win 64 games. That’s how you become the number one seed in the Eastern Conference. They showed throughout the course of the regular season that they could win without Donovan Mitchell. Did that mean that they were better without it? No, it just meant on that night they were able to survive that because of certain things that happened. DeAndre Hunter stepping forward, Ty Jerome stepping forward. So for. For one game, a couple of games against a specific opponent, yeah, the Cavs were able to overcome the loss of Darius Garland, but as they get further into this playoff run against better competition, against a different kind of matchup, against an opponent that demands certain things. No, they’re not better off without Darius. I think the defense thing is fascinating because the numbers during the regular season say. And this is a long conversation, but the numbers for the Cavs in the regular season say that they were better on defense without Darius. And the numbers in the two games with Darius and without Darius on defense are startling. And I know you don’t want to get caught up in small sample sizes and you don’t want to focus on just like a couple of games against a specific opponent, but when they have a 93 defensive rating without him and a 119 defensive rating with him, and that’s the worst of any player in terms of the on off stuff, that makes you at least do a deeper look into it. It makes you start to ask your own questions. And I think Kenny Atkinson understands that going into the series against Indy, they’re going to target Darius. Every team that plays against the Cavs is going to target Darius. That’s the way that it’s going to go. You find the weakest link, the perceived weakest link, and you go at him just like the Cavs did with Tyler Herro, just like the Cavs did with Duncan Robinson. Indiana would be foolish to not do that. So it’s going to be on Darius to show that he can continue to hold up defensively and not have some of his defensive limitations and shortcomings like negate the special that he is on the offensive end of the floor. Because they need his offense in this series. They need his dynamic shot creation. They need his ability to break the defense down. You know, especially if Andrew Nemhard is going to be on Donovan Mitchell trying to make things really, really difficult. Or maybe Andrew Nemhardt is going to be on Darius and Aaron Neesmith is going to be on Donovan Mitchell. However, it’s going to be like some of the better defenders are going to be occupied elsewhere. So that is going to be up to other guys to step forward offensively, including Darius. So he has to play if he’s going to play the kind of defense that he did against Miami. And it was bad, bad, bad. There were 12 of 18 with him as the primary defender. Now, the volume wasn’t there. Whatever. You could talk about that being like Miami’s own fault for not, you know, attacking over and over and over again. Better offenses are going to. Better offenses are going to have more discipline than that. But. But if he’s going to play the kind of defense that he did in the series against Miami, he’s going to have to be like, all star level Darius on the offensive end of the floor to make up for that. But that’s the way that it’s been throughout the course of the season, and that’s the way that it’s been throughout the course of his career. And that’s just the challenge that he’s going to run into because he has physical limitations on the defensive end of the floor. Jimmy Watkins: To my eye, the Darius question is like, okay, Darius, the Cavs were better on defense without Darius. Of course, he’s one of their smallest, shortest players. Like, this is not rocket science. There are physical limitations there. The more interesting question going, we probably won’t get to know this because I suspect he’s going to play in game one, but the more interesting thing to me is like, could the Cavs offense really look that good without him? Like, over an extended stretch? Because, like, if that’s the case, then you could have this is. We’re putting our galaxy brains on brain caps on. Like, if the Cav season goes anything close to according to plan, we will never really know the answer to these questions because the Cavs are pretty certain that they’re better off with Derek Scarlet and they’re probably right. But like, if you sacrifice a player to get targeted on defense, obviously your defense gets better. But if you can do that and then hang 120, 130 on the. On the Heat like they were, and obviously the Miami Heat quick factor cannot be understated in this conversation. They let go of the rope in both of these games. We’re already making too much of this Kyle Anderson thing. I just think that would be the more interesting conversation. Of course we know the defense would be better, but how good can the offense be without him? That’s more the question. Chris Fedor: I also think there’s a difference between saying that a team plays different and uses a different scheme defensively, uses a different scheme offensively, runs different stuff at both ends of the floor. There is a stark contrast in those two terms. Yes, the Cavs play different without Darius because the personnel is different because of the skill sets of the guys that have to step forward. That’s different, too. But. But different doesn’t mean better. Ethan Sands: And I think that gets into the maturity factor. Right. That comes a little bit full circle. We’re talking about how Kenny Atkinson, throughout the entire season has praised Darius defense and put him into situations where he had to figure it out on the fly so that he would have a better understanding of the role and what was going to happen in the playoffs while trying to adjust for the physicality and get his strength up, get his weight up, all these things throughout the season. Season. But the other side of that coin is how do you react if things don’t go your way on the defensive end. As Chris was saying, you still have to play a high caliber basketball performance on the offensive end, especially if things aren’t going your way on the defensive end. I think that’s the maturity aspect that Kenny Atkinson has preached throughout the regular season. And as we get into the playoffs and and as we continue this little running joke, Darius will definitely have to play like a 28 year old rather than his actual age in this series. And Chris, to your point, I actually think that the Pacers and this could change. This is just my take on the situation. I think it would be more beneficial for them to start Aaron Neesmith on Donovan Mitchell than Andrew Knephar, even though Andrew Kneppar might have better numbers against Donovan in the regular season. I haven’t pulled those up specifically yet. I just think the size of Neesmith, the size and strength of Neesmith against somebody who is as long as Donovan Mitchell is and how he gets his shot off is a better option than Nemhard, who also is pesky at the point of attack and can also bother Darius Garland and force the Cavs into some reactive things depending on how he plays in the offensive side of the ball. But that’s just my thinking coming into the series. Chris Fedor: Sure. I mean, that’s why you have a guy like Neesmith. But I think the broader point is that they have multiple of those kinds of guys that can harass Cleveland’s guards. Whereas Miami had one, they had one and it was Davion Mitchell. So I mean they have nice Smith, they have T.J. mcConnell coming off the bench. They have Andrew Nemard. Nemard was one of the better defenders in the NBA. Like he got consideration from me for my all defensive teams. So however they want to start, it’s not going to be the same guy every single time. It’s going to be different looks. You have to give great players different looks. You have to give great players different guys that are going to take those matchups if they’re going to switch. You know, that’s something that the Cavs will have to consider as well. But I don’t think Indiana is a great defense by any means. But I think from a matchup perspective, I think they have more guys that can bother the more important players of the Cavs than Miami did. Ethan Sands: Personnel is a big part of this, and I think that gets into our next section of the podcast perfectly. When we talk about who and what is the biggest threat to the Cavs on the Indiana Pacers, what do you guys feel is the area where the Pacers might have the greatest advantage? Or who do you think is the most troublesome piece for the Indiana Pacers in this Eastern Conference semifinals series against the Cleveland Cavaliers? Jimmy, I’m going to start with you. Jimmy Watkins: To me, I just think it’s the fact that they can score with the Cavs. And that might sound simple, but I think that’s a really tough baseline to meet for a lot of teams, man, go up and down the conference. How many other teams are there that can say the same thing? Chris Fedor: Probably Boston and Miami can’t. Jimmy Watkins: Well, yeah, we know Miami can’t. It’s probably Boston and Indiana. And that’s it. That’s. That’s the nls. You think New York. Chris Fedor: I think New York. Ethan Sands: Maybe. Jimmy Watkins: Maybe. Chris Fedor: I think they have enough firepower to do it. Jimmy Watkins: They have firepower. They do. They do. They have enough firepower. I wonder a little bit about the diversity of attack. Chris Fedor: Fair. Jimmy Watkins: My read on the series in general is that it seems like the Cavs are just the big brother version of the Pacers. Like they are both elite transition teams. They both come at you from a variety of different angles. They both can shoot you out of the gym. And the Cavs just have better players who can do that. Right? That’s basically what it comes down to. Me with the Pacers, you’re trusting a lot of play finishers to perform at a playoff level, role player type guys. Whereas the Cavs I like, I think they’re role players. I trust their role players a little bit more. The key guys. And there’s like, there’s one Tyrese Halburn and then a Pascal Siakam, but not to the same level. Donovan Mitchell, Darius Garland, Evan Mobley, that’s cemented right there. And I mean, there are going to be opportunities for Jarrett to produce offensively in this series, man, like if you’re Indiana, the way you have to guard the Cav, defend the Cavs, guards around screens. With Miles Turner, there’s opportunities for Jarrett to get behind them. You know, there’s a lot on Miles Turner’s plate there. And Tyrese is a very targetable player, too. But I would just say that I think we’ve been talking about the pace for a while and I’ve been saying this The Cavs will be comfortable playing Indiana’s style, which can be a good thing because again, I think the Cavs just are better at it. But if Indiana is hitting, then it can be a dangerous thing for you to be comfortable playing their style. And I do think something else that Indiana will test. We talk about maturity, the Cavs ability to stem a tide. Like, there’s going to be some wild swings in this series. The way that both of these teams can score, I think, I mean, this is true for every team. But the way a stop feeds the offenses of both of these teams, I think you can see some. You’re going to see some really quick 100 runs you could see. Chris Fedor: I don’t. Jimmy Watkins: I mean, I don’t think either of these teams are likely to go super long drafts, but like, there could be some big runs. Like sometimes stuff just snowballs and then what. How do you respond to that? That’s, you know, that was our question last postseason. The Cavs go to Orlando, they get punched in the mouth, so to speak. It doesn’t go well. It doesn’t go well. Basically didn’t happen against Miami. I mean, they might look. Miami played a really good first quarter in Game two, and they made a really good run late in the fourth quarter of Game two. And then Donovan Mitchell went superhero. So that’s pretty much all the info we have. I do think the Cavs are better equipped to handle that mentally. And the other thing is, I asked Kenny about this today. The Pacers. Yap, they’re a frisky bunch. They let you know, hilariously, they let them know when they’re playing well. Okay. And I asked Kenny directly about that. Like, where do you draw the line between trash talking and gamesmanship or whatever you want to call it, what’s good, what’s bad there? And he basically said, we don’t need to go there. We’re not looking to get in this series to get chippy. I think that’s telling. I think that’s how you’re supposed to act as the favor, as the favorite in a series. Like the underdog is the one that’s supposed to bring that kind of energy, usually. But I also think that Kenny recognizes that the Cavs are not at their best in those situations. So I think those are a couple things that we’ll start with. Chris Fedor: I mean, the thing that stands out about Indy, everybody knows this. They just play so fast. And you can sit there and you can say, I know what’s coming. I see it on film. We’ve heard about it over and over and over again, but when you feel it, when you play against it, it’s just different. So the Cavs have to find a way to deal with that speed and the pace of Indiana and at the same time not get caught up in it. Right, because the Cavs have to be the Cavs and they’re not Indiana. They don’t play at the same pace. There are levels to this thing. They don’t play at the same pace as Indiana. They want to play fast, they want to get out in transition, they want to sprint to corners, they want to do all those kinds of things that you would expect a team that has a modern offensive philosophy to do, but not to the same level as in the end. So they have to understand, at the end of the day, they need to be themselves. And I think one of the most interesting chess moves in this entire series is going to be what does Kenny Atkinson do about the two Bigs? We talked about this on a previous podcast, but. But I think it’s a big component of this series because the Cavs believe in the two bigs. It makes them unique, it makes them special. So they have to find a way. There are advantages that they have to playing both those big guys together, Jared Allen and Evan Mobley. They have to find a way to continue to maximize those things and make those things favorable for them, more favorable for them than the weaknesses are. Because there are weaknesses to playing both bigs too, especially in this matchup against a five out offensive attack, which is the most difficult for the Cavs based on their personnel to guard. They want Jared inside. They want Evan Mobley in the paint. They want him playing weak side, kind of roaming like a free safety. But if he’s guarding Pascal Siakam, he might not be in the paint as much. He might not be around the rim as much. If Jared’s got to go out to the perimeter, stretch his defense out there to deal with Miles Turner, then who becomes the last line of defense? Then who becomes the help defenders? So it’s like Indiana has the kind of personnel in the offensive versatility to make it. So the best thing about the Cavs defense is somewhat neutralized. The beauty of the Cavs, though, is that if they do go away from the two bigs, they have other guys. So like DeAndre Hunter, Dean Wade, those guys step forward and they play a bigger role and they’re more involved in this particular series than they were at various points against Miami. And I think there’s a feeling and a belief among the Cavs of yeah, yeah, we might lose something defensively by not having Jarrett and Evan out there together in most cases. But in this particular series, we could gain a little bit of speed, we could gain a little bit of quickness, we could gain a little bit of better matchup for DeAndre, for Dean Wade. And normally you would look at this and you would say, all right, well, Pascal Siakam’s the leading scorer for the Pacers in the playoffs and like he’s the guy that’s going to be the toughest matchup for the Cavs. And this is no offense to Pascal. He’s a great player. He’s a multi time all star and he’s somebody who has given the Cavs problems in the past. I just think they’re built to deal with him. They could use Jarrett on him and look like Pascal’s quick, he’s got guard skills. So he’s going to win matchups against Jarrett when he pulls him out to the perimeter and he’s going to win matchups against defensive player of the year Evan Mobley. It’s going to happen. Just be prepared for it. But Jarrett could guard him. Evan could guard him. Dean Wade, DeAndre Hunter. I think the Cavs have more, more quality options to deal with Pascal than they do at the point of attack on Tyrese Halliburt. That’s where I’m looking personally. And I think the beauty of the Pacers flipping it on the other side is they’re very similar to the Cavs from this standpoint. For the Cavs, it doesn’t have to be Donovan getting 30. It doesn’t have to be Darius. It could be Ty Jerome, it could, it could be DeAndre Hunter, it could be Jared Allen. It could be a bunch of different guys. The Pacers are the same kind of way. It doesn’t have to be Tyrese Halliburton. It doesn’t have to be Siakam. It could be Myles Turner banging five threes. It could be Obi Topping coming off the bench and providing double digits in scoring. It could be Andrew Nemhard catching fire and being the offensive spark plug. So that becomes pretty fascinating when you talk about this series. I don’t think it’s like one of these series where it’s like, okay, one guy target, one guy. I think it’s specific matchups within this chess game that become really, really important to okay, how do the Cavs handle it and how do the Pacers handle it and like, what wins out? Jimmy Watkins: Just a quick point on the two bigs. I really think, particularly in this series, if the Cavs can find a way to make that pairing work, it could be really advantageous because the importance of that pairing, when you have a stretch five is magnified because like Chris said, Miles Turner’s out there. You have to respect him. It’s harder for you to get to the rim. And in theory, the Pacers could have five guys that you have to respect out there. But there are some guys, your Ben Shepherds who might play a little bit more because of his defensive prowess in this series, your Andrew Nemhards, your T.J. mcConnells, that you can hide some. You can try to at least hide some guys. And if you. If you’re splitting that difference with Jarrett and Evan, sure, they’re still going to be on the perimeter, they’re still going to have to count for that space, but it’s easier to make that work defensively if there’s only one out there. Again, I think DeAndre Hunter and Dean Wade can be palatable rotation guys at the rim, but it’s just not the same with us having two elite rim protectors out there at all times. At all times. And that’s. That’s why the pages are so hard to guard. They leverage their shooting and to be able to get to the rim. And if you only have one big guy out there to deal with it, that makes it hard. I think Dean Wade is a fascinating flashpoint in this series for me because again, he’s perfect for guarding Pascal Siakam. He’s been the Cavs for long, been the Cavs best solution to splitting the difference. Him and DeAndre both. And you have we talked about this when they got DeAndre. It’s like having a Jared Allen, Evan Mobley pairing, but for your stretch four, that’s really cool. But Dean Wade making shots. Maybe you’ve heard of this conversation topic before. Never more important than it will be. Well, it might be more important against Boston, but it has never been more important to this point than it will be in this series. Particularly given how talented the Pacers are offensively, particularly how up and down this game is going to be like. The Pacers are going to be desperate to find someone to hide Tyrus Halliburton on. And if Dean Wade is on the court and Tyrus Halliburton is on the court, I bet Tyrese Halliburton is going to be guarding Dean Wade. Or they’re going to put their big on Dean. They’re looking for places to hide. The Cavs don’t have many Places to hide. They don’t offer you many places to hide, so if you give the Pacers a place to hide, they’re going to take it. And if not, if not Dean Wade, then Your non deAndre stretch four minutes are interesting. Is it Okoro? Is it Streuss? It’s a different kind of those two things stick out to me. Chris Fedor: I definitely expect Tyrese Haliburton to spend a majority of his time on the defensive end just chasing Max Stru around screens. Max has a skill set that is really, really important to the Cavs, but he’s not the kind of guy that can punish somebody like Tyrese over and over and over again. Like the things that bother Tyrese as a defensive player, it doesn’t point to Max Strus like it points to Donovan Mitchell. It points to Darius Garland. It points to Jalen Brunson, it points to Cade Cunningham, it points to Dame Lillard. And that doesn’t mean that he doesn’t have a specific place in this series, and it doesn’t mean that he’s not really, really important to the Cavs success. It’s just how he goes about it on the offensive end. It isn’t as problematic for somebody like. Jimmy Watkins: Tyrese come guard this get game, then Tyrese halberd Max just throwing the ball to Jared Allen and he’s going to get it. Yeah, we’re running that pick and roll. Chris Fedor: Him as much as he possibly can. Yeah. Ethan Sands: And I think it’s funny that we keep using all of these different sports analogies. Obviously, Kenny Atkinson is one of the most unique users of football, soccer, whatever you want to ask about him. He’ll use a different analogy than basketball when explaining some of his breakdowns and his schemes. But there was a couple of things today that struck a chord with me and went for my predictions article that’ll come out in the morning. I kind of broke it down through the analogies that were being made. Right. And Chris, you mentioned it on this podcast. The chess game that it is. In regular chess, each player has the same kinds of pieces, has the same kind of moves, all these things. But in basketball and sports in general, that’s not the case. It’s personnel based. It’s who you have on the court. It’s what matchups and adjustments you can make on the fly. Just like chess, but it’s based on how the opposing team is playing. The other analogy that Kenny Akinson made today, what is that? It’s not a boxing match. And yet I don’t know if this season has been or last season has been more said that the Cavs keep saying we have to land the first punch or we have to take their first punch and land our punch back. So for me, and I think boxing might be the best analogy for basketball because you don’t get time to rest, you don’t get time to step off the mound like baseball and think about what you’re going to do. Maybe it’s the 400 meter dash, maybe that’s what it is because you’re just running around the track and you can’t burn out in the first and you can’t get too far behind because you’re not going to be able to catch back up. But for me, when you talk about all these different analogies, I think the most important one when we go back is how the Cavs either land the first punch or how they react, right? And for me, as you guys were mentioning, they’re the number one seed. I think in this scenario they have to land the first punch rather than being reactive and seeing what Rick Carlisle and the Indiana Pacers are going to throw at them. Because when you talk about a series where both teams have different pieces that are capable of breaking a defense down and two teams that have an offensive heavy structure, I think it’s important that the Cavs get ahead rather than are trailing and trying to come back because that also neutralizes different things that we’ve talked about, especially when it comes to the two big lineup. Because as we’ve seen with Kenny Atkinson throughout the season, he’s more than happy to play Jared Allen and Evan Mobley together when the Cavs are up and they want to utilize their defense and also play against some smaller guys as the Indiana Pacers will trying to catch up. But if the Indiana Pacers are ahead, the Cleveland Cavaliers will likely try and go to the five man lineup. What did Kenny Atkinson say today? The hardest team to guard or type of team to guard is a five out lineup. It just is. And I think that’s telling of how his mental state is going into the series. I want to use Jarrett. I know how important Jared is, how much he helped us in the first series. But if I have to go away from him and I can’t find a solution, as Chris was saying, to maximize his potential against a smaller lineup, against a team that plays more spaced out, then I’m going to have to go away to him. And there lies the other options that we talked about. Dean Wade, DeAndre Hunter and Max Strus and I know we talked a little bit about this already, but. But Tyrese Halliburton and Tyler Herro have similar kind of styles. How they play offensively and how they’re attackable on defense. You mentioned Max Strus, and I think if Darius Garland isn’t going to be able to be a major factor offensively or if his maturity wanes, I think Isaac Okoro is another guy. What do you think about the defensive approach that the Cavs are going to take against Tyrese Haliburton, and how similar is that to the one that they attacked Tyler. Tyler Hero with? Chris Fedor: I find it hard to believe that it can be similar because Indiana just has more weapons. So if you try and use the same kind of strategy that you use against the Heat, like it’s not Andrew Wiggins out there. You know what I mean? Like it’s not Kyle Anderson out there. This is a prolific offensive team. This is the second best offense in the playoffs. This is the best offense in last year’s playoffs, by the way. This is a top 10 offense during the regular season, and part of that was played without Tyrese Halliburton. So if you talk about since Tyrese came back and he’s been in the lineup, it’s been one of the best offenses in the NBA. It has been as long as he’s been out there on the floor consistently. So I think there’s a danger in trying to focus too much on Tyrese and trying to guard him the same kind of way, because I think the personnel for Indiana is better equipped to make the Cavs pay for that particular strategy. Jimmy Watkins: That’s also. You’re just feeding into what he does best. He’s more of a passer than a scorer. And I think there’s like a weird. These are not the same people, but sometimes when teams guard Jokic, they’re just like, well, what if we just let him score 50 and. Or at least let him try because they’re more afraid of him as a playmaker than they are of him as a. As a scorer. And he will kill you either way because he’s the best player on the planet. What if the Caps just had Tyrus Halliburton try to score 50? What do you think would happen? I don’t know the answer. I don’t know the answer. He’s not. Chris Fedor: Plays into their favor. Jimmy Watkins: He’s not. He’s not the level of. He’s not the same level of force. Now, obviously, if you’re going to do that, I don’t know how you would do that. Maybe I actually think there’s a decent chance that Kenny will send Darius Adam a decent both because they’re. There’s a little bit of Jedi mind trick. Okay, yeah, you have the guy that you think you can beat, but you’re going to get caught up scoring him, and that might throw off your offensive flow. And also it just feeds back into what he’s been saying all year about Darius. We’re not going to hide you, Darius. We’re going to see how you hold up this. That’s how their philosophy has been the whole year, right? I’d be interested to see if the Cavs roll that out. Tyrese, we don’t think you can beat us by getting 40. We don’t think you can get 40. What does that look like? It’s just. Also just like playing. Playing Tyrese straight up is a lot less stressful on the other parts of your defense than if they were to put. Again, Darius is just the example I have right now. If they were. Put him somewhere else, and then Tyrese hunts him and you try to avoid that switch. Now, there’s just a ton of moving parts with your defense, and you’re. You’re stressing out other parts of your defense when you. Like, if you put them under. If you put them on Tyrese straight up, Tyrese might get past him and you have to rotate. But it’s different. It’s a different approach. You can cheat off guys before that even happens. So, yeah, I think making Tyrese Halberton be a scorer as much as you can is probably the best way to approach this, but that’s way easier said than done. Ethan Sands: I think that’s a good point, Jimmy, especially when you talk about how things will be rotationally different for the defense. And I don’t know, maybe Donovan Mitchell’s the guy. His physicality, his length, his. His wingspan, somebody that can get up into Tyrese Halliburton, he knows how to be physical on defense. So, yeah, maybe we’ll see. If they play straight up or if they try to put Max Strus on the best player on the offensive team, as they’ve done for a majority of the regular season and a majority of the playoffs so far, I think it’s. It’s up in the air. Chris Fedor: I think it boils down to this, though. Like, the Cavs knew going into the series against Miami, we neutralize Tyler Herro. They have no shot. They have no shot on offense because they don’t have enough weaponry that can step up and fill that void. So we just make things hard for him. We bother him as much as we possibly can. We limit his shot attempts, we limit his scoring opportunities, all of those different things. If the Cavs go into this series with that kind of mindset against Tyrese Halliburton, the result’s not the same. Andrew Nemhard can go and get 30, he can’t. He’s done it on the playoff stage. Sit there and you shrug. But he’s done it on the playoff stage. He’s cooked defenses on the playoff stage. Pascal Siakam can go get 40. You know what I mean? So, like, this isn’t the kind of series to me where you say, all right, neutralize one guy, eliminate one guy and we’re good. Like, that’s our pathway to success. Doing that against Indiana, they’ve got other guys like Benedict Matheran, as much of a liability as he is, as much of a wild card as he is, he could go score 20 on a given night. So they just have different guys that can step forward. And if the Cavs focus too much on Tyrese, that’s going to be problematic. I just don’t think he’s the kind of guy where you compromise the other parts of your defense to neutralize or shut down. Like, he’s not that type of player. He’s really, really good. He’s really good in terms of running the offense that Indiana has. He is the engine, whereas Donovan called him the head of the snake. But that’s not a workable solution this time for the Cavs like it was against Miami. Ethan Sands: So let me end the podcast with this question then, because I feel like we’ve gone to different areas, Darius and Jared Allen and all these different players that are going to be important. But who is the most important player for the Cavs in this series? To you guys from them, to come out of this one with a W and get on to the Eastern Conference finals. Chris Fedor: I default toward Evan Mobley here because I think there are going to be extended stretches in this series where he’s going to be the lone big, because I think there are going to be some problems playing both those bigs together. And I think as much as the Cavs can can punish Indiana by playing two bigs on the offensive end, offensive rebounds, post ups, put backs, playing out of the pocket, you know, lobs, stuff like that, the Cavs have to capitalize on those things for sure. I just think, you know, Kenny’s going to have a hard time consistently going with that, understanding that he has Dean Wade understanding that he has DeAndre Hunter understanding that he has better personnel to deal with the five out lineup. So I look at Evan Mobley because of that and because if there’s somebody who is kind of built to slow down Pascal Siakam, it should be Evan. He’s got the length, he’s got the athleticism, he’s got the quickness. He is the defensive player of the year. So that’s really, really important. And I think offensively, you know, the kind of load that, that he could carry for them is really, really important. Especially if Andrew Nemhard is going to be matched up against Darius Garland. If Aaron Neesmith is going to make things tough, at the very least, make things tough on Donovan Mitchell. You know, Evan is somebody who, the way that he has evolved offensively has allowed this team to go to a different level. And I think the kind of responsibility that he’s going to have on the offensive end because of his matchup versus some other matchups, I don’t think we can overlook him. And I know that’s a lot of pressure and I know that that’s a lot of responsibility falling on him. But that’s where my focus goes in saying that, you know, I think Donovan, duh. Anytime you go into any series, you look at him first and foremost for a variety of reasons. But beyond Donovan Mitchell, the obvious answer to me, I look at Evan Mowgli. Jimmy Watkins: I’m Evan too. This is a series where offense and defense will be more connected than usual. He’s a key piece on both ends. I’m thinking of this more from an. Because the Evan Mobley thing is we know we’re getting on defense like, okay, yeah, we could say Donovan, but I think I said this before Miami. Aren’t we all just penciling Donovan in for another excellent playoff series? Another 25 plus a night on pretty good efficiency and filling in the other gaps as he, as he needs. Evan is offensively, he’s going to have some of the best opportunities matchup wise because the Pacers don’t really have a reliable backup center. So when Miles Turner is not in the game, we’re talking about guys like, I guess, Thomas Bryant. Thomas Bryant is, let’s say, not known for his defense. Maybe this ain’t the series for Thomas Bryant. Chris Fedor: Is he known for anything? Jimmy Watkins: That’s mean. That’s mean. I didn’t say that. Thomas Bryant’s family. That was Chris. If it’s not Thomas Bryant, then we’re talking like Obi toppin at the 5 or Pascal Siakam. Like these are real, real opportunities. These are real opportunities for Evan we’re again, I think Donovan is excellent and it doesn’t really matter who you put on him. He’s going to get buckets. But like Andrew Nemhard, Aaron Neesmith, Ben Shepherds of the world can make them work. Evan could get. Could get some easy buckets. He could dominate stretches of this series if he has the right mindset and he’s on his game. And I just think going back to what I said at the beginning of the series, if I’m, if I’m looking at the series from the standpoint of the Cavs have more depth at the top of their roster, then I need that to be true. I need that to be true again. I expect it from Donovan. Darius, toe injury. I don’t love that going into the series, but I will trust my eyes. From what I saw of the first two games in Miami, he was really good. I again, don’t love the vibes on the toe injury. Don’t love the idea, you know, this weird absence, this weird conversation around or they. They look better without. I don’t. There’s just a lot of weird stuff going on. I will feel much better after Darius scores 20 points and has 12 assists in Game 1 on Sunday, but I just want to see that. I just want to see that first. But I mostly trust him as well in this series so that Evan’s going to have. Evan has matchups that stand out to me. He has the opportunity to take his game to another level offense. I also just want to say offensive rebounding is important in the series for the Cavs if they want to survive with Jared Allen and Evan Mobley, be careful because if you crash too hard, the Pacers are going to leave you in the dust. And on the flip side, the Pacers are actually a pretty. Like, I would say the best part about their defense is their transition defense. That’s by design because they know what kind of team they were going to be. But like, they. I think they’re dead last in offensive rebound rate. They just don’t care. They don’t care about offensive rebounds whatsoever. They run back. They trust that they’re going to get enough shots doing what they do anyways. Ethan Sands: And I think that’s a great point. And I think Evan Mobley makes a whole lot of sense with the whole Jared Allen dynamic. I think for me, the most important player is going to be DeAndre Hunter. I think how he comes off the bench, how he impacts the series is going to be like, incredibly important. Jimmy Watkins: We sure is going to stay on the bench. The whole series. Ethan Sands: No, that’s. No, obviously not, because I think he’ll be playing next to Evan Mobley. I don’t think he’s. He starts in this series. I don’t think the Cavs make that jarring decision. But I’m not going to put words in Kenny Atkinson’s mouth. I’m just saying, for me, if he comes off the bench, DeAndre Hunter needs to be the version that we saw in Games 3 and 4 in Miami, not the version that we saw in Game 1 against Miami and Cleveland. He needs to be the guy that one not only makes his shots, makes things tough on the defensive end. Because who knows, if Evan Mobley is having a good game guarding Pascal Siakam, DeAndre Hunter could end up or find himself guarding Miles Turner on the perimeter. Right. Because if that’s his game, that could be an option. Or you see what Pascal Siakam’s doing to Evan Mobley. DeAndre Hunter, you got to match up with Pascal, and that’s just what his journey has been. First and foremost, his defense has been the most important piece of him coming to the Cavs. Now you also have to elevate your offensive game to be where it was in the latter half of the Eastern Conference first round against the Miami Heat. And I think that’s just crucial for him. But the other part of that and what we’ve talked about, Jimmy, and what you’ve mentioned is the rebounding. Like, you cannot be out there and not grab it. Boris, obviously, it’s great that the Indiana Pacers don’t care about offensive rebounds. So Jared Allen, Evan Mobley, DeAndre Hunter get on the boards. But if DeAndre Hunter gets on the boards, he can automatically start the transition break for the Cavs as well, rather than if Jared Allen gets the ball, he has to figure out who he’s giving the ball to. Evan Mobley’s got in the same boat as DeAndre Hunter, starting the break on his own. That’s something that we’ve seen this entire season and something that Kenny Atkinson has raved about and wanting to push him to do that more. More, because it allows the Cavs to get into their offensive flow. DeAndre Hunter is in the same boat, he says, just as important in that sense. And that’s why, for me, DeAndre Hunter is the most important player for this series for the Cavs. Chris Fedor: In 55 minutes against the Miami Heat, Evan Mobley and DeAndre Hunter, with those two guys on the court, the Cavs had an offensive rating of 128.6 and a defensive rating of 97.4. That is a net rating of 31.2. The Pacers are not the Heat. Pacers are a much, much, much more capable offense and they have guys that can make the Cavs a little less effective with those two guys on the floor together. But that shows, I think, that that that series against the Heat allows Kenny to easier make the decision of going away from the two bigs and feeling like he can thrive and this team can thrive with with DeAndre at the four spot next to Evan Mobley. Like that level of of defense combined with the offensive ceiling that the Cavs have because of the shooting of DeAndre because of the floor spacing, because of the three level scoring that he has, like all those different things. This is the time of year that the Cavs got DeAndre Hunter for. Jimmy Watkins: And you remember what we were talking about during the Miami series after game three. It was just like when you had DeAndre Dean and the elite rim protector out there. It just feels like they’re everywhere. Like there’s no safe driving lane. I think that’s really important in this series because of the wide array of passers, shooters and dribblers that Indiana can hit you with it. There’s no easy way to guard that, but one way is to just have guys out there who always feel like they can take the ball from you. Make guys think twice but before dribbling in their vicinity, that sort of thing. I think that’s really important in this series. Chris Fedor: I mean, the other thing, again, Miami’s not Indiana, but DeAndre is the primary defender against the entire Heat roster. Miami went 13 of 35 when guarded by him. So if he plays that level of defense, especially in isolation situations, because you know, the Pacers do move it around a lot. They do have a rhythmic offense, but they also get into ISO situations. They also rely on Pascal Siakam just to win his matchup or Andrew Nemhard to win his matchup or whoever it may be, just win your matchup. If DeAndre can play that level of defense, then there’s no reason for the Cavs to feel like, hey, going away from Jared and Evan, we’re losing that much defensively. Ethan Sands: I’m just putting together lineups in my head and I can definitely see Kenny Axes going to multiple different lineups. Obviously Donovan Mitchell and Evan Mobley are the front and backs of these, but like Sam merrow, Max Drew, DeAndre Hunter, Max Drew, Isaac Okoro Dean Wade, Sam merrow, Max Drew, DeAndre Hunter, like having some form of shooting and then having DeAndre Hunter on the back end of that alongside Evan Mobley, or if you want to go defense heavy, you go with a lineup that you get. Donovan, Isaac, or Sam, depending on what you got going on. Dean Wade, DeAndre Hunter, and Evan Mobley. Like, there’s so many different options that I feel like Kenny Atkinson can go to. And especially when you talk about all the different lineups that he’s tried DeAndre with already this regular season, it’s important to see how he’s going to Mitch and Mack and which players he’s going to prioritize in this series, because we know there are guys that fit into his system, but there are also guys that don’t fit necessarily into each series that the Cavs are going to play. And how Kenny Atkinson plays that game and. And how he continues to build the trust with his players is going to be huge, especially in the playoffs and especially when we talk about wanting to elevate to the next level. Obviously, we talked about it. It might not be a Jared Allen series. Not so sure it’s going to be a Sam Merrill series either. Chris Fedor: Well, I wonder about Isaac Okoro because we talk about, you know, where would Tyrese Halliburton hide on the defensive end of the floor? You’re giving him somewhere to hide. I don’t know. Isaac’s important on the defensive end of the floor. His point of attack, defense, his screen navigation, all of that’s going to matter against Indy. But this might be a series where you just say, like, offense, you just gotta give us the best pathway. How do we best score 120 points? And, you know, if Isaac’s not making shots, if he’s not an offensive threat, like, you’re just giving the worst defender for Indiana, like, somewhere where he can go and not punish him. Jimmy Watkins: By the way, if he does make shots, I think he could change the series with his defense. He could change the series with his defense. And, I mean, he’s going to get a lot of open looks. So if he’s making shots, that’s free. Free money. Ethan Sands: I also just think the. The size around Tyrese Halliburton is definitely something to keep an eye on, especially when you talk about Andrew Nemhardt being 6 foot 4, Aaron Nees with being 6 foot 6, Tyrese himself being 6 foot 5. Like, there aren’t small, weaker players that you can just switch on to without having to think about it. Right? So however Kenny thinks about his offensive structure, you do also have to think about the opposite reaction on the defensive end. And sure, you can rave about Sam Merrill all you want, but it’s also who he has around him that has helped him be successful. And I’m not saying Sam hasn’t been great, because he has been. I’m just trying to figure out where Kenny Atkinson might pull back on minutes, and we saw that a little bit in the first round series against Miami, and obviously that offense was not as good as what we’re about to see with the Indiana Pacers. But with all that being said, that’ll wrap up today’s episode of the Wine and Gold Talk podcast. But remember to become a Cavs insider and interact with Chris, me and Jimmy by subscribing to Subtext. This is where you can send in your weekly hey Chris questions. Our next episode for hey Chris is going to be tomorrow, so make sure you send in your questions and sign up for a 14 day free trial. Or visit cleveland.comcavs and click on the blue bar at the top of the page. If you don’t like it, that’s fine. All you have to do is text the word stop. It’s easy, but we can tell you that the people who sign up stick around because this is the best way to get insider coverage on the Cavs from me, Chris and Jimmy. This isn’t just our podcast, it’s your podcast. And the only way to have your voice heard is through subtext. Y’all be safe. Chris Fedor: We out. Note: Artificial intelligence was used to help generate this story from the Cleveland Wine and Gold Talk Podcast by cleveland.com. Visitors to cleveland.com have asked for more text stories based on website podcast discussions.