A rising trend of techno-fascism driven by populism and artificial intelligence has been visible since the US presidential election in November. Nexus, which was published just a few months earlier, is a timely explainer of the potential consequences of AI on democracy and totalitarianism. In the book, Harari does not just sound the alarm on singularity—the hypothetical future point at which technology, particularly AI, moves beyond human control and advances irreversibly on its own—but also on AI’s foreignness. This interview was conducted by Michiaki Matsushima, editor in chief of WIRED Japan, and was also recorded for “The Big Interview” YouTube series for the Japanese edition of WIRED, scheduled to be released in April 2025. The interview has been edited for clarity and length. WIRED: In the late ’90s, when the internet began to spread, there was a discourse that this would bring about world peace. It was thought that with more information reaching more people, everyone would know the truth, mutual understanding would be born, and humanity would become wiser. WIRED, which has been a voice of change and hope in the digital age, was part of that thinking at the time. In your new book, Nexus, you write that such a view of information is too naive. Can you explain this? YUVAL NOAH HARARI: Information is not the same as truth. Most information is not an accurate representation of reality. The main role information plays is to connect many things, to connect people. Sometimes people are connected by truth, but often it is easier to use fiction or illusion. The same is true of the natural world. Most of the information that exists in nature is not meant to tell the truth. We are told that the basic information underlying life is DNA, but is DNA true? No. DNA connects many cells together to make a body, but it does not tell us the truth about anything. Similarly, the Bible, one of the most important texts in human history, has connected millions of people together, but not necessarily by telling them the truth. When information is in a complete free market, the vast majority of information becomes fiction, illusion, or lies. This is because there are three main difficulties with truth. First of all, telling the truth is costly. On the other hand, creating fiction is inexpensive. If you want to write a truthful account of history, economics, physics, et cetera, you need to invest time, effort, and money in gathering evidence and fact-checking. With fiction, however, you can simply write whatever you want. Second, truth is often complex, because reality itself is complex. Fiction, on the other hand, can be as simple as you want it to be. And finally, truth is often painful and unpleasant. Fiction, on the other hand, can be made as pleasant and appealing as possible. Thus, in a completely free information market, truth would be overwhelmed and buried by the sheer volume of fiction and illusion. If we want to get to the truth, we must make a special effort to repeatedly try to uncover the facts. This is exactly what has happened with the spread of the internet. The internet was a completely free marketplace of information. Therefore, the expectation that the internet would spread facts and truths, and spread understanding and consensus among people, quickly proved to be naive. In a recent interview with The New Yorker, Bill Gates said, “I always thought that digital technology empowers people, but social networking is something completely different. We were slow to realize that. And AI is something completely different as well.” If AI is unprecedented, what, if anything, can we learn from the past? There are many things we can learn from history. First, knowing history helps us understand what new things AI has brought. Without knowing the history, we cannot properly understand the novelty of the current situation. And the most important point about AI is that it is an agent, not just a tool. Some people often equate the AI revolution with the printing revolution, the invention of the written word, or the emergence of mass media such as radio and television, but this is a misunderstanding. All previous information technologies were mere tools in the hands of humans. Even when the printing press was invented, it was still humans who wrote the text and decided which books to print. The printing press itself cannot write anything, nor can it choose which books to print. AI, however, is fundamentally different: It is an agent; it can write its own books and decide which ideas to disseminate. It can even create entirely new ideas on its own, something that has never been done before in history. We humans have never faced a superintelligent agent before. Of course, there have been actors in the past. Animals are one example. However, humans are more intelligent than animals, especially in the area of connection, in which they are overwhelmingly superior. In fact, the greatest strength of Homo sapiens is not its individual capabilities. On an individual level, I am not stronger than a chimpanzee, an elephant, or a lion. If a small group, say 10 humans and 10 chimpanzees, were to fight, the chimpanzees would probably win. So why do humans dominate the planet? It is because humans can create networks of thousands, millions, and even billions of people who do not know each other personally but can cooperate effectively on a huge scale. Ten chimpanzees can cooperate closely with each other, but 1,000 chimpanzees cannot. Humans, on the other hand, can cooperate not with 1,000 individuals, but with a million or even a hundred million. The reason why human beings are able to cooperate on such a large scale is because we can create and share stories. All large-scale cooperation is based on a common story. Religion is the most obvious example, but financial and economic stories are also good examples. Money is perhaps the most successful story in history. Money is just a story. The bills and coins themselves have no objective value, but we believe in the same story about money that connects us and allows us to cooperate. This ability has given humans an advantage over chimpanzees, horses, and elephants. These animals cannot create a story like money. But AI can. For the first time in history, we share the planet with beings that can create and network stories better than we can. The biggest question facing humanity today is: How do we share the planet with this new superintelligence? How should we think about this new era of superintelligence? I think the basic attitude toward the AI revolution is to avoid extremes. At one end of the spectrum is the fear that AI will come along and destroy us all, and at the other end is optimism that AI will improve health care, improve education, and create a better world. What we need is a middle path. First and foremost, we need to understand the scale of this change. Compared to the AI revolution we are facing now, all previous revolutions in history will pale in comparison. This is because throughout history, when humans invented something, it was always they who made the decisions about how to use it to create a new society, a new economic system, or a new political system. Consider, for example, the Industrial Revolution of the 19th century. At that time, people invented steam engines, railroads, and steamships. Although this revolution transformed the productive capacity of economies, military capabilities, and geopolitical situations, and brought about major changes throughout the world, it was ultimately people who decided how to create industrial societies. As a concrete example, in the 1850s, the US commodore Matthew C. Perry came to Japan on a steamship and forced Japan to accept US trade terms. As a result, Japan decided: Let’s industrialize like the US. At that time, there was a big debate in Japan over whether to industrialize or not, but the debate was only between people. The steam engine itself did not make any decision. This time, however, in building a new society based on AI, humans are not the only ones making decisions. AI itself may have the power to come up with new ideas and make decisions. What if AI had its own money, made its own decisions about how to spend it, and even started investing it in the stock market? In that scenario, to understand what is happening in the financial system, we would need to understand not only what humans are thinking, but also what AI is thinking. Furthermore, AI has the potential to generate ideas that are completely incomprehensible to us. I would like to clarify what you think about the singularity, because I often see you spoken of as being “anti-singularity.” However, in your new book, you point out that AI is more creative than humans and that it is also superior to humans in terms of emotional intelligence. I was particularly struck by your statement that the root of all these revolutions is the computer itself, of which the internet and AI are only derivatives. WIRED just published a series on quantum computers, so to take this as an example: If we are given a quantum leap in computing power in the future, do you think that a singularity, a reordering of the world order by superintelligence, is inevitable? That depends on how you define singularity. As I understand it, singularity is the point at which we no longer understand what is happening out there. It is the point at which our imagination and understanding cannot keep up. And we may be very close to that point. Even without a quantum computer or fully-fledged artificial general intelligence—that is, AI that can rival the capabilities of a human—the level of AI that exists today may be enough to cause it. People often think of the AI revolution in terms of one giant AI coming along and creating new inventions and changes, but we should rather think in terms of networks. What would happen if millions or tens of millions of advanced AIs were networked together to bring about major changes in economics, military, culture, and politics? The network will create a completely different world that we will never understand. For me, singularity is precisely that point—the point at which our ability to understand the world, and even our own lives, will be overwhelmed. If you ask me if I am for or against singularity, first and foremost I would say that I am just trying to get a clear understanding of what is going on right now. People often want to immediately judge things as good or bad, but the first thing to do is to take a closer look at the situation. Looking back over the past 30 years, technology has done some very good things and some very bad things. It has not been a clear-cut “just good” or “just bad” thing. This will probably be the same in the future. The one obvious difference in the future, however, is that when we no longer understand the world, we will no longer control our future. We will then be in the same position as animals. We will be like the horse or the elephant that does not understand what is happening in the world. Horses and elephants cannot understand that human political and financial systems control their destiny. The same thing can happen to us humans. You’ve said, “Everyone talks about the ‘post-truth’ era, but was there ever a ‘truth’ era in history?” Could you explain what you mean by this? We used to understand the world a little better, because it was humans who managed the world, and it was a network of humans. Of course, it was always difficult to understand how the whole network worked, but at least as a human being myself, I could understand kings, emperors, and high priests. They were human beings just like me. When the king made a decision, I could understand it to some extent, because all the members of the information network were human beings. But now that AI is becoming a major member of the information network, it is becoming increasingly difficult to understand the important decisions that shape our world. Perhaps the most important example is finance. Throughout history, humans have invented increasingly sophisticated financial mechanisms. Money is one such example, as are stocks and bonds. Interest is another financial invention. But what is the purpose of inventing these financial mechanisms? It is not the same as inventing the wheel or the automobile, nor is it the same as developing a new kind of rice that can be eaten. The purpose of inventing finance, then, is to create trust and connection between people. Money enables cooperation between you and me. You grow rice and I pay you. Then you give me the rice and I can eat it. Even though we do not know each other personally, we both trust money. Good money builds trust between people. Finance has built a network of trust and cooperation that connects millions of people. And until now, it was still possible for humans to understand this financial network. This is because all financial mechanisms needed to be humanly understandable. It makes no sense to invent a financial mechanism that humans cannot understand, because it cannot create trust. But AI may invent entirely new financial mechanisms that are far more complex than interest, bonds, or stocks. They will be mathematically extremely complex and incomprehensible to humans. AI itself, on the other hand, can understand them. The result will be a financial network where AIs trust each other and communicate with each other, and humans will not understand what is happening. We will lose control of the financial system at this point, and everything that depends on it. So AI can build networks of trust that we can’t understand. Such incomprehensible things are known as “hyperobjects.” For example, global climate change is something that humans cannot fully grasp the mechanisms or full picture of, but we know it will have a tremendous impact and that we therefore must confront and adapt to it. AI is another hyperobject that humanity will have to deal with in this century. In your book, you cite human flexibility as one of the things needed to deal with big challenges. But what does it actually mean for humanity to deal with hyperobjects? Ideally, we would trust AI to help us deal with these hyperobjects—realities that are so complex that they are beyond our comprehension. But perhaps the biggest question in the development of AI is: How do we make AI, which can be more intelligent than humans, trustworthy? We do not have the answer to that question. I believe the biggest paradox in the AI revolution is the paradox of trust—that is, that we are now rushing to develop superintelligent AI that we do not fully trust. We understand that there are many risks. Rationally, it would be wise to slow down the pace of development, invest more in safety, and create safety mechanisms first to make sure that superintelligent AIs do not escape our control or behave in ways that are harmful to humans. However, the opposite is actually happening today. We are in the midst of an accelerating AI race. Various companies and nations are racing at breakneck speed to develop more powerful AIs. Meanwhile, little investment has been made to ensure that AI is secure. Ask the entrepreneurs, businesspeople, and government leaders who are leading this AI revolution, “Why the rush?” and nearly all of them answer: “We know it’s risky, for sure. We know it’s dangerous. We understand that it would be wiser to go slower and invest in safety. But we cannot trust our human competitors. If other companies and countries accelerate their development of AI while we are trying to slow it down and make it safer, they will develop superintelligence first and dominate the world. So we have no choice but to move forward as fast as possible to stay ahead of the unreliable competition.” But then I asked those responsible for AI a second question: “Do you think we can trust the superintelligence you are developing?” Their the answer was: “Yes.” This is almost insane. People who don’t even trust other humans somehow think they can trust this alien AI. We have thousands of years of experience with humans. We understand human psychology and politics. We understand the human desire for power, but we also have some understanding of how to limit that power and build trust among humans. In fact, over the past few thousand years, humans have developed quite a lot of trust. 100,000 years ago, humans lived in small groups of a few dozen people and could not trust outsiders. Today, however, we have huge nations, trade networks that extend around the world, and hundreds of millions, even billions, of people who trust each other to some extent. We know that AI is a doer, that it makes its own decisions, creates new ideas, sets new goals, creates tricks and lies that humans do not understand, and may pursue alien goals beyond our comprehension. We have many reasons to be suspicious of AI. We have no experience with AI, and we do not know how to trust it. I think it is a huge mistake for people to assume that they can trust AI when they do not trust each other. The safest way to develop superintelligence is to first strengthen trust between humans, and then cooperate with each other to develop superintelligence in a safe manner. But what we are doing now is exactly the opposite. Instead, all efforts are being directed toward developing a superintelligence. Some WIRED readers with a libertarian mindset may have more faith in superintelligence than in humans, because humans have been fighting each other for most of our history. You say that we now have large networks of trust, such as nations and large corporations, but how successful are we at building such networks, and will they continue to fail? It depends on the standard of expectations we have. If we look back and compare humanity today to 100,000 years ago, when we were hunter-gatherers living in small herds of a few dozen people, we have built an astonishingly large network of trust. We have a system in which hundreds of millions of people cooperate with each other on a daily basis. Libertarians often take these mechanisms for granted and refuse to consider where they come from. For example, you have electricity and drinking water in your home. When you go to the bathroom and flush the water, the sewage goes into a huge sewage system. That system is created and maintained by the state. But in the libertarian mindset, it is easy to take for granted that you just use the toilet and flush the water and no one needs to maintain it. But of course, someone needs to. There really is no such thing as a perfect free market. In addition to competition, there always needs to be some sort of system of trust. Certain things can be successfully created by competition in a free market, however, there are some services and necessities that cannot be sustained by market competition alone. Justice is one example. Imagine a perfect free market. Suppose I enter into a business contract with you, and I break that contract. So we go to court and ask the judge to make a decision. But what if I had bribed the judge? Suddenly you can’t trust the free market. You would not tolerate the judge taking the side of the person who paid the most bribes. If justice were to be traded in a completely free market, justice itself would collapse and people would no longer trust each other. The trust to honor contracts and promises would disappear, and there would be no system to enforce them. Therefore, any competition always requires some structure of trust. In my book, I use the example of the World Cup of soccer. You have teams from different countries competing against each other, but in order for competition to take place, there must first be agreement on a common set of rules. If Japan had its own rules and Germany had another set of rules, there would be no competition. In other words, even competition requires a foundation of common trust and agreement. Otherwise, order itself will collapse. In Nexus, you note that the mass media made mass democracy possible—in other words, that information technology and the development of democratic institutions are correlated. If so, in addition to the negative possibilities of populism and totalitarianism, what opportunities for positive change in democracies are possible? In social media, for example, fake news, disinformation, and conspiracy theories are deliberately spread to destroy trust among people. But algorithms are not necessarily the spreaders of fake news and conspiracy theories. Many have achieved this simply because they were designed to do so. The purpose the algorithms of Facebook, YouTube, and TikTok is to maximize user engagement. The easiest way to do this, it was discovered after much trial and error, was to spread information that fueled people’s anger, hatred, and desire. This is because when people are angry, they are more inclined to pursue the information and spread it to others, resulting in increased engagement. But what if we gave the algorithm a different purpose? For example, if you give it a purpose such as increasing trust among people or increasing truthfulness, the algorithm will never spread fake news. On the contrary, it will help build a better society, a better democratic society. Another important point is that democracy should be a dialogue between human beings. In order to have a dialogue, you need to know and trust that you are dealing with a human being. But with social media and the internet, it is increasingly difficult to know whether the information you are reading is really written and disseminated by humans or just bots. This destroys trust between humans and makes democracy very difficult. To address this, we could have regulations and laws prohibiting bots and AI from pretending to be human. I don’t think AI itself should be banned at all; AI and bots are welcome to interact with us, but only if they make it clear that they are AI and not human. When we see information on Twitter, we need to know whether it is being spread by a human or a bot. Some people may say, “Isn’t that a violation of freedom of expression?” But bots do not have freedom of expression. While I firmly oppose censorship of human expression, this does not protect the expression of bots. Will we become smarter or reach better conclusions by discussing topics with artificial intelligence in the near future? Will we see the kind of creativity that humans can’t even conceive of, as in the case of AlphaGo, which you also describe in your new book, in classroom discussions, for example? Of course it can happen. On the one hand, AI can be very creative and come up with ideas that we would never have thought of. But at the same time, AI can also manipulate us by feeding us vast amounts of junk and misleading information. The key point is that we humans are stakeholders in society. As I mentioned earlier with the example of the sewage system, we have a body. If the sewage system collapses, we become sick, spreading diseases such as dysentery and cholera, and in the worst case, we die. But that is not a threat at all to AI, which does not care if the sewage system collapses, because it will not get sick or die. When human citizens debate, for example, whether to allocate money to a government agency to manage a sewage system, there is an obvious vested interest. So while AI can come up with some very novel and imaginative ideas for sewage systems, we must always remember that AI is not human or even organic to begin with. It is easy to forget that we have bodies, especially when we are discussing cyberspace. What makes AI different from humans is not only that its imagination and way of thinking, which are alien, but also that its body itself is completely different from ours. Ultimately, AI is also a physical being; it does not exist in some purely mental space, but in a network of computers and servers. What is the most important thing to consider when thinking about the future? I think there are two important issues. One is the issue of trust, which has been the subject of much discussion up to this point. We are now in a situation where trust between human beings is at stake. This is the greatest danger. If we can strengthen trust between humans, we will be better able to cope with the AI revolution. The second is the threat of being completely manipulated or misdirected by AI. In the early internet days, the primary metaphor for technology was the Web. The World Wide Web was envisioned as a spiderweb-like network connecting people to each other. Today, however, the primary metaphor is the cocoon. People are increasingly living in individual cocoons of information. People are bombarded with so much information that they are blind to the reality around them. People are trapped in different information cocoons. For the first time in history, a nonhuman entity, an AI, is able to create such a cocoon of information. Throughout history, people have lived in a human cultural cocoon. Poetry, legends, myths, theater, architecture, tools, cuisine, ideology, money, and all the other cultural products that have shaped our world have all come from the human mind. In the future, however, many of these cultural products will come from nonhuman intelligence. Our poems, videos, ideologies, and money will come from nonhuman intelligence. We may be trapped in such an alien world, out of touch with reality. This is a fear that humans have held deep in their hearts for thousands of years. Now, more than ever, this fear has become real and dangerous. For example, Buddhism speaks of the concept of māyā—illusion, hallucination. With the advent of AI, it may be even more difficult to escape from this world of illusion than before. AI is capable of flooding us with new illusions, illusions that do not even originate in the human intellect or imagination. We will find it very difficult to even comprehend the illusions. You mention “self-correcting mechanisms” as an important function in maintaining democracy. I think this is also an important function to get out of the cocoon and in contact with reality. On the other hand, in your book, you write that the performance of the human race since the Industrial Revolution should be graded as “C minus,” or just barely acceptable. If that is the case, then surely we cannot expect much from the human race in the coming AI revolution? When a new technology appears, it is not necessarily bad in itself, but people do not yet know how to use it beneficially. The reason why they don’t know is that we don’t have a model for it. When the Industrial Revolution took place in the 19th century, no one had a model for how to build a “good industrial society” or how to use technologies such as steam engines, railroads, and telegraphs for the benefit of humanity. Therefore, people experimented in various ways. Some of these experiments, such as the creation of modern imperialism and totalitarian states, had disastrous results. This is not to say that AI itself is bad or harmful. The real problem is that we do not have a historical model for building an AI society. Therefore, we will have to repeat experiments. Moreover, AI itself will now make its own decisions and conduct its own experiments. And some of these experiments may have terrible results. That is why we need a self-correcting mechanism—a mechanism that can detect and correct errors before something fatal happens. But this is not something that can be tested in a laboratory before introducing AI technology to the world. It is impossible to simulate history in a laboratory. For example, let’s consider the railroad being invented. In a laboratory, people were able to see if steam engines would explode due to a malfunction. But no one could simulate the changes they would bring to the economic and political situation when the rail network spread out over tens of thousands of kilometers. The same is true of AI. No matter how many times we experiment with AI in the laboratory, it will be impossible to predict what will happen when millions of superintelligences are unleashed on the real world and begin to change the economic, political, and social landscape. Almost certainly, there will be major mistakes. That is why we should proceed more carefully and more slowly. We must allow ourselves time to adapt, time to discover, and correct our mistakes. This story originally appeared on WIRED Japan and has been translated from Japanese.